1927 Yankees team ball forgery

[slidekellyslide]

Hey guys, a simple request - Stop using swear words. Thanks.

[batsballsbases]

David my friend and you know you are 99.5% might be a good average to hang your hat on but that .5% ended up costing you alot of money!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

David my friend and you know you are 99.5% might be a good average to hang your hat on but that .5% ended up costing you alot of money!

True enough! But that's the risk any collector, of any collectable, takes.

[barrysloate]

With any transaction the buyer must utilize as much information as possible, and provenance is a very important tool, in some cases the most important. But Travrosty makes a good point that every bad piece will have a story to go with it. So it's important to assess and verify provenance. Having someone say, I know it's old because I bought it from an antique dealer is not acceptable provenance. But there are some very great pieces that have resided with families for generations, and the story behind them may be a critical piece of the whole puzzle.

[David Atkatz]

It's not just "not acceptable provenance," Barry. It's not provenance at all.

In the fine art world, the key element in passing a forgery is manufacturing a provenance. That is not making up a convincing story, it is physically manufacturing a paper trail that "proves" the piece's age and history.

[barrysloate]

Agreed David, but I can't tell you how many times I have been offered reproductions, usually advertising pieces, and when I tell the seller the piece is a modern repro, he tells me that's impossible because he purchased it at an antique store. That's the kind of story Travrosty was calling out.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agreed David, but I can't tell you how many times I have been offered reproductions, usually advertising pieces, and when I tell the seller the piece is a modern repro, he tells me that's impossible because he purchased it at an antique store. That's the kind of story Travrosty was calling out.

I quite understand that, Barry. But in calling that story "provenance" he shows a (common) misunderstanding of wha t provenance actually is.

I suggest you read "Provenance: How a Con Man and a Forger Rewrote the History of Modern Art, by Laney Salisbury, and Aly Sujo. Here's the publisher's description (emphasis added):

Filled with extraordinary characters and told at breakneck speed, Provenance reads like a well-plotted thriller. But this is most certainly not fiction. It is the astonishing narrative of one of the most far-reaching and elaborate cons in the history of art forgery. Stretching from London to Paris to New York, investigative reporters Laney Salisbury and Aly Sujo recount the tale of infamous con man and unforgettable villain John Drewe and his accomplice, the affable artist John Myatt. Together they exploited the archives of British art institutions to irrevocably legitimize the hundreds of pieces they forged, many of which are still considered genuine and hang in prominent museums and private collections today.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Hey guys, a simple request - Stop using swear words. Thanks.

Sorry Dan, I thought that particular word was acceptable.
Would you want me to go back and soften it up?

[slidekellyslide]

I think I changed most of them to BS already. Not a real big deal and normally I'd gloss over it, but a thread on the other side turned nasty that I had to clean up a bit and I'd like to be consistent.

Thanks.

[batsballsbases]

Yes Richard please control yourself. Dont make me reach thru my computer screen and give you a slap!

[barrysloate]

Provenance is not an exact science. Usually the very best provenance is finding something that has been with a single family for a long time, say a ball Babe Ruth signed in the 1940's, or a Beatles signature from 1964, that has never been on the market ever, and you become the very first owner after the original family. But even that is based upon feeling confidant that the family isn't lying. And sometimes they do lie. Good judgment and common sense is important.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Provenance is not an exact science. Usually the very best provenance is finding something that has been with a single family for a long time, say a ball Babe Ruth signed in the 1940's, or a Beatles signature from 1964, that has never been on the market ever, and you become the very first owner after the original family. But even that is based upon feeling confidant that the family isn't lying. And sometimes they do lie. Good judgment and common sense is important.

A very strong +1 from me.
The art world and the autograph world obviously operate very differently.
People in the art world will knowingly create a paper trail for a piece.
But the family that is selling me a 50 or 60 or more year old autograph book, that grandma got by standing outside the NYC nightclubs, did not create a paper trail for the book. They would never have thought of doing that. You judge the autographs and you appreciate their word of mouth story.
Barry and I seem to have used the word provenance a bit loosely according to the definition presented in this thread. But as far as I know that word has been used in this hobby for "word of mouth stories."

[barrysloate]

Richard- if someone wanted to make up an incredibly elaborate story that seemed so convincing nobody would even question it, I'm sure they could. That's why you really have to assess the story and decide for yourself. It's not a science. I've heard some very credible stories attached to really significant pieces, and there is always a part of me that wonders if they are no more than just very carefully thought out lies.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Richard- if someone wanted to make up an incredibly elaborate story that seemed so convincing nobody would even question it, I'm sure they could. That's why you really have to assess the story and decide for yourself. It's not a science. I've heard some very credible stories attached to really significant pieces, and there is always a part of me that wonders if they are no more than just very carefully thought out lies.

Absolutely true. I assess the autographs and stories all the time and consider myself to be an excellent judge of both.
I have to tell the board a good story here.
Years ago, get a phone call from a guy who tells me he has a Munson era Yankee signed team ball. We made an appointment and he shows up with his two sons. He had told me his story about how he got into the dugout and the ball was signed for him. Well when I meet him, he proceeds to pull out a facsimile machine signed ball. I tell him what he has and he gets really angry. "I got the Yankees to sign this ball." He is raising his voice to me, in front of his two sons. Well I said "you may have gotten the Yankees to sign a ball, but not this ball." I was glad that this was taking place in front of a couple of people as he obviously could not do anything, but he actually shook me up wth his phony anger.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Barry and I seem to have used the word provenance a bit loosely according to the definition presented in this thread. But as far as I know that word has been used in this hobby for "word of mouth stories."

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

[RichardSimon]

Barry, According to the prior post, I think you and I have just had a great fall and nobody can put us back together again.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Yes Richard please control yourself. Dont make me reach thru my computer screen and give you a slap!

Al,
It would be easier for you to reach over and slap my son, he lives in CT too.