T206 Doctored Card Detection Kit Ideas....anyone think this would be a good idea

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Posted By: ted

Okay, so as someone who isn't a complete novice, but not an expert, i had an idea. Don't know where this will go but i thought i'd put it out there and see if anyone liked the idea. basically, i think it would be great to put together 3-5 card counterfit/doctored card kits for members and interested parties as a way to help people compare cards they are looking at .... in otherwords, spend some time and about 40-50 a kit to give to people. In this set i would include:
1 trimmed card
1 fake border
1 type size for the players name
1 Imitation Cardboard

Obviously we would need to include cards that are definitely cut..... as opposed to a card taht people argue over....
What else would you guys add to this list and do you think it would be helpful. My suggestion would be that these kits are sold only for what it costs to put them together.. it would be a great utility for novices and experts alike to be able to have a doctored card in hand when looking to purchase new items. Certainly people could acquire these on their own.....but if you don't know what to look for how will you know if that's what you have...

Just a thought!
BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: Mike P.

What about some unscrupulous individual buying the kit then selling all the cards as authentic?

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Posted By: ted

mark all the cards....... i mean if they're fakes ... they're not worth diddly, and i wouldn't think that we would include any quality players trimmed cards....just put a stamp on the card or something of that nature....

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Posted By: Mike P.

I understand your point but a little "paper loss" would do the trick as far as a marking or stamps go. Maybe I am being too cynical, its just that we've all seen it happen. The cards of less value would be an option but you don't see many less valued cards altered. I think a detailed and fully descriptive website with big detailed pictures and descriptions would do the trick. I know that "davidcycleback" has something that I have found to be informative on his website. I'd post the link but I'm at work right now and don't have it off hand.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

examples of ALL the high-dollar reprints sold on ebay.
examples of the '33 Ruth forgeries (as opposed to reprints) that Garth Feldman sells.
examples from ALL of the Cracker Jack and t206 reprint sets known to exist.
examples of all known TYPES of forgeries (lemon juiced and baked, etc.)

Last, but not least, a disk containing scans with examples of reprints, forgeries and real cards, side by side, of each major set.

Such a kit should be part of the standard tool-set for graders at PSA, SGC and GAI. If it isn't, it's a travesty.

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Posted By: ted

Mike - You have to understand ... that outside of a trimmed card, none examples i have given are in fact authentic pieces. They are all fakes and forgeries so writing on them with pen won't do anything to their value b/c they don't have any value.

Also, i think and accompanying disckett is a great idea.....I think it is important to stress that having an actuall, in hand example, is important for this assumed "kit"

I think the main trick is going to be finding the actual forgeries, maybe we could work with the people over at SGC or something to aquire these forgeries or something like that.

BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: davidcycleback

...

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Posted By: ted

I think the issue of something at the national has been discussed, and i think it's a good idea. Nonetheless, not everyone is able to attend the show, developing this kit, with the help of fellow board members could be a real benefit. I would be glad to even develop a website where people could have access to the information as well as order the cards + cd .... I really must reiterate that i have no intention of making money on this..... i think we just charge for the cost of the cdr's, the cards, and S&H. I would need help putting together the sets and ultimately determining how many cards to include....really this idea could work for any vintage baseball card .... but t206, being one of my passions and the most popular, is the best place to start.

BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

but not everyone is going to the National.

I think kits need to exist, if not for us, certainly for professional graders. Does anyone know what the pro graders go through as far as training?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Starting in about a month, I will be having short free online videos about the identification, dating, fake detection, etc of various material. This was something I had been planning on doing for a while, but just a couple of days ago got the most important video technicalities worked out. I already have my first topics picked. While the types of material/topics covered will cover a wide range, a short or two on judging the authenticity of baseball cards would fit in nicely. If viewers have their own little 'kits' of real and fake cards, that would only make the video experience better.

I should note that the videos would not cover anything that is not already covered on the website, but enhance what is already there. It's one thing to read about a black light, and another to watch someone use it.

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Posted By: ted

david -

video is a great supliment as well...these kits would only need to be put together on an order by order basis, i would bet that at the begining, whoever was holding these (which would probably be me), would only need one or two extra kits lying around just in case. People who are intentionally purchasing this stuff are not the target, this is for the actual collector of real items...to help them in their fraud detection. I certainly wouldn't mention this to anyone at psa or sgc or anything b/c i don't want them stealing the idea and trying to make a profit on it! My biggest question would be how do we effectively collect these items.

BlackSoxFan

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Posted By: vetekbob

I think this is a great idea Ted and David and you can count me in to help in whatever way needed no matter how small the task may be. Helping fellow collectors out is what its all about and it does my heart good to have seen this thread.
Robert

basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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Posted By: ted

Thanks robert, and ps...still waiting for that email

Ted

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: ted

Yeah julie..those are necessities...but i wasn't sure what we should try and offer for people, frankly, i think that if some of us are going to try and get together and provide this to others, we can just tell them what lights and microscopes we feel are best for the job...but that type of stuff is a) readily available and b) easy enough for someone to get on their own. I certainly think an equipment list could be included on the photo cd.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I personally think that a kit or whatever for collectors is a good idea, but I also doubt many collectors will purchase it. My feeling is that it would be a service to gather up some low grade commons and a bunch of reprints and fakes, and offer them to collectors who are interested in having samples. But I think it would be a waste of time to make an elaborate kit, because the vast majority of collectors aren't interested in putting much time or effort or money into learning how to authenticate cards.

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Posted By: ted

A) we would not include authentic cards in the kit..only fakes/forgeries/whatever. I think some photo stuff would be usefull and would be easy to do b/c it would take a couple of hours to put together high quality stuff after that..its' just a matter of copying it for others. Once again, i'm only expecting to get what it costs to make the kits... as such. i think a cd and about 4-5 cards would be plenty.

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Posted By: ted

So does anyone want to actual help starting to put this thing together?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

This is your project.

In my opinion, the interested collector can purchase his own samples on eBay. Pick out a low grade PSA or SGC graded Goudey or T206 crack it open. And it's not as if it's a challenge for a collector to find reprinted and fake versions. If a collector wants to find out what a trimmed card looks like, take out the paper cutter and trim a card. If a collector wants to see what doctored cards look like, he can doctor some cards and look at them. If a collector wants to see what an inked 1971 Topps card looks like, ink a 1971 Topps card and look at it.

If your kit makes things easier that's great and I support it, but this is all stuff that serious collectors should have ALREADY done.

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Posted By: cn

I have been collecting 50's and 60's for years and know have started collecting vintage cards and I would be interested in having anything that would help me so I don't get burned buying fake and trimmed cards. I am just curious since I am fairly knew to collecting vintage cards but why are so many trimmed? I sure this has been addressed before but why would someone trim a card?

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Posted By: ted

If you have a card with a rough edge the value drops dramatically...trim the card to make it look like it's got great corners and the price is extremely high....


TDG

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Posted By: Ben

and then sneak it into a slab and you're home free.......



It would be great to have a site devoted to something like what Andy did with the Ruth rookie, but for all sets, or at least all sets that you see reprints of floating around. It would be easy enough to put together a website to help newbies decifer real cards from common fakes. Just need high resolution images of authentic cards (which all of us here could easily provide), and then pair them with scans of their corresponding reprints on the website (scans of those are even easier to find on ebay).

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Posted By: ted

Agreed .... I will be happy to do what i can to help manage the project and run the website...but i don't have the time to do everything myself......