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  #1  
Old 05-09-2021, 11:57 AM
zoomfest zoomfest is offline
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For those familiar with blockchain, wouldnít it make sense to eventually have the grading agencies use blockchain technology to eliminate fraud / demonstrate ownership of card collectibles? And for that matter, use AI for grading? Would likely increase consistency, security and, I would imagine, prices. Views?
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:03 PM
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Your post reminds me of my dear late grandmothers revelation, about 20 yrs ago, that these computers are going to be a big thing someday (the internet was already in full force)!

I should add I don't know enough to talk to the block chain aspect but the AI has been coming into fruition for a few years and seems to be ready to go.

.
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:10 PM
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For those familiar with blockchain, wouldnít it make sense to eventually have the grading agencies use blockchain technology to eliminate fraud / demonstrate ownership of card collectibles? And for that matter, use AI for grading? Would likely increase consistency, security and, I would imagine, prices. Views?
Thatís the future I see. Right now blockchain isnít understood enough to be widely accepted. Once itís uses are easily understood, it will become the norm for contracts and certification of authenticity. And I was one that initially scoffed at it. It took me some time to read what it did and how it works to become a believer. People see Doge coin in the news, etc, and donít get it. I really began to understand when I read about VeChain and VeThor. Then it clicked.
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:55 PM
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Thanks EDJS. I mean, I see another application in NFTs - which strikes me as logical and crazy (prices) at the same time. But sing simple blockchain tech in card grading authenticity will - in my opinion - be offered within 2 years. I think everybody benefits except for the fraudsters (and, ok - those that wish to keep raw cards).
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:29 PM
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Having card tracked on blockchain would also make sales easier to track by the IRS. So many people would not want their cards to be tracked that way, or submit to card consignment firms or grading companies that put them on the blockchain.
Not all of them are fraudsters, some just don't want others knowing their assets, making them a theft target.
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  #6  
Old 05-09-2021, 01:41 PM
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Why would a physical card be on blockchain? Blockchain is a receipt for something digital that shows you own it. You wouldn't need a digital receipt for a physical object.
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:05 PM
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topps bunt??
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:39 PM
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I like the idea of tracking the history of cards to avoid trimming, other frauds, sales after theft, etc., but blockchain probably wouldn't make the most meaningful contribution in this case. The card is a physical asset that would need to be tagged permanently somehow. And if that were done then a simple registry at the time of its initial tagging (high res photo files, etc) would be sufficient for many of the issues.

If the card itself weren't tagged, what would stop someone from simply cracking the case, altering or selling the card, and tossing the slab in the trash?

That said, I'm not dismissing that blockchain technology can't be used in a meaningful way in this industry...just that there is a base, physical layer to the problem that must be addressed first.
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:07 PM
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Why would a physical card be on blockchain? Blockchain is a receipt for something digital that shows you own it. You wouldn't need a digital receipt for a physical object.
Genamint would have a scan, and know exactly where the card had been. All you'd need to do is to run a scan through the program and each card has unique identifiers.

I think
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  #10  
Old 05-09-2021, 03:23 PM
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Genamint would have a scan, and know exactly where the card had been. All you'd need to do is to run a scan through the program and each card has unique identifiers.
But that's now PSA proprietary, and only useful on cards submitted through PSA in the future. Blockchain could be used on any graded card, without it having to pass through PSA first.
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:42 PM
FrankWakefield FrankWakefield is offline
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Secondly, if enough people want blockchain security on slabbed card ownership for transfer purposes, then someone will step in to provide that if there's money to me made. Although it would still leave slab tampering to sidestep that security, which means that folks would see advancements in slab tampering technology. If the day comes when that blockchain protection is in use, I'll not be someone who pays to use it. The vast majority of graded cards that I buy are busted out; how are they gonna 'blockchain' that?

Firstly, it reminds me of a current beer commercial, maybe Budweiser, where the person tasting the beer is wired to a polygraph machine, and the operator proclaims that he's told the truth about the beer... and then we see that the polygraph operator is wired up to another polygraph machine with a separate polygraph operator who then proclaims that the first operator was telling the truth about the beer drinker telling the truth.

Thirdly, for some collectors of graded cards, those collectors would have much bigger, more vast, better collections if they'd have spent all of that slab money on more ungraded cards, and had developed some skill at assessing potential cards themselves.

Last edited by FrankWakefield; 05-12-2021 at 09:04 PM. Reason: fixin' hillbilly grammer...
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  #12  
Old 05-09-2021, 08:41 PM
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I keep my blockchain either with the bike stuff, or on the bikes..

I think it would do bad things to cards, even slabbed ones.

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  #13  
Old 05-09-2021, 11:21 PM
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I keep my blockchain either with the bike stuff, or on the bikes..

I think it would do bad things to cards, even slabbed ones.

Only if that fits a 74 Norton Commando...
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  #14  
Old 05-10-2021, 03:49 AM
Wid_Conroy Wid_Conroy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edjs View Post
Thatís the future I see. Right now blockchain isnít understood enough to be widely accepted. Once itís uses are easily understood, it will become the norm for contracts and certification of authenticity. And I was one that initially scoffed at it. It took me some time to read what it did and how it works to become a believer. People see Doge coin in the news, etc, and donít get it. I really began to understand when I read about VeChain and VeThor. Then it clicked.
Cryptocurrency is not understood enough to be widely accepted
Blockchain is 100% understood enough and is 100% accepted.

We commoners do no need to understand blockchain for its takeover. Itís already well underway. Crypto/Bitcoin does require the end user to understand. These are 2 different things
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  #15  
Old 05-10-2021, 07:50 AM
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I still don't understand why I need blockchain or cryptocurrency. If cryptocurrency is valuable in so far as it can be exchanged for dollars, then it's not a currency.
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  #16  
Old 05-10-2021, 08:33 AM
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I think it's worth breaking down what blockchain is and what it isn't.

Blockchain is not the same as NFTs or Bitcoin. It's just that NFTs and Bitcoin use blockchain technology to support their business model.

Blockchain an instant and immutable ledger technology. Put simply, Blockchain provides a secure record of ownership at a point in time.

Normally, when a buyer and seller agree a transaction, there is a period of time for the transaction to be settled. For example, when you buy on ebay...it takes a few days to make the payment and then a few more days before the seller gets you the card via USPS. That whole period between agreeing the transaction to making the payment and getting delivery is the settlement period. That settlement period is where we have risk around who owns the asset (and the risk) until the goods are fully delivered.

For a completely digital transaction (e.g. an NFT or buying bitcoin) Blockchain provides instantaneous settlement. Because all the components are digital - the transfer of bitcoin for an NFT can be recorded instantly as soon as both sides confirm the transaction. But for a physical asset (e.g. a baseball card or a house), the asset needs to be tokenized. This requires someone to assign a digital token to the physical asset. Then you can buy/sell the digital token and record that instantly by blockchain. Think of it as a digital version of the title to your house.

You need some trusted organization to assign a token to the physical asset and maintain the register. This is critical to stop someone creating multiple copies of the title to their house and selling their house to 5 people.

For baseball cards, blockchain doesn't solve many of the problem we face. For example, blockchain doesn't prevent someone selling a trimmed card nor does it stop someone failing to deliver the card. It can't, in and of itself, tell you that the asset hasn't been tampered with.

There are ways to get around many of these limitation but it seems to focus on holding the cards in a secure vault. Then you don't actually ship the card to the buyer....the buyer just gets ownership of the card in the secure vault.

Think of it like buying/selling on the stock market. Most people never receive a physical stock certificate anymore. Instead your name is held on the register electronically. This is a token that represents your ownership.
Blockchain helps to automate and speed up the management of that register. But if you want to actually have a paper stock certificate to put it in your filing cabinet....you don't get to use the tokenized system.

For those of us who want to actually take delivery of our cards and see them in our display cabinets....I'm afraid blockchain is going to be of limited value.

For anyone with an interest in blockchain for baseball cards, google "Blockchain on physical assets" and you'll find lots of blogs, articles and videos.
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by UKCardGuy View Post
I think it's worth breaking down what blockchain is and what it isn't.

Blockchain is not the same as NFTs or Bitcoin. It's just that NFTs and Bitcoin use blockchain technology to support their business model.

Blockchain an instant and immutable ledger technology. Put simply, Blockchain provides a secure record of ownership at a point in time.

Normally, when a buyer and seller agree a transaction, there is a period of time for the transaction to be settled. For example, when you buy on ebay...it takes a few days to make the payment and then a few more days before the seller gets you the card via USPS. That whole period between agreeing the transaction to making the payment and getting delivery is the settlement period. That settlement period is where we have risk around who owns the asset (and the risk) until the goods are fully delivered.

For a completely digital transaction (e.g. an NFT or buying bitcoin) Blockchain provides instantaneous settlement. Because all the components are digital - the transfer of bitcoin for an NFT can be recorded instantly as soon as both sides confirm the transaction. But for a physical asset (e.g. a baseball card or a house), the asset needs to be tokenized. This requires someone to assign a digital token to the physical asset. Then you can buy/sell the digital token and record that instantly by blockchain. Think of it as a digital version of the title to your house.

You need some trusted organization to assign a token to the physical asset and maintain the register. This is critical to stop someone creating multiple copies of the title to their house and selling their house to 5 people.

For baseball cards, blockchain doesn't solve many of the problem we face. For example, blockchain doesn't prevent someone selling a trimmed card nor does it stop someone failing to deliver the card. It can't, in and of itself, tell you that the asset hasn't been tampered with.

There are ways to get around many of these limitation but it seems to focus on holding the cards in a secure vault. Then you don't actually ship the card to the buyer....the buyer just gets ownership of the card in the secure vault.

Think of it like buying/selling on the stock market. Most people never receive a physical stock certificate anymore. Instead your name is held on the register electronically. This is a token that represents your ownership.
Blockchain helps to automate and speed up the management of that register. But if you want to actually have a paper stock certificate to put it in your filing cabinet....you don't get to use the tokenized system.

For those of us who want to actually take delivery of our cards and see them in our display cabinets....I'm afraid blockchain is going to be of limited value.

For anyone with an interest in blockchain for baseball cards, google "Blockchain on physical assets" and you'll find lots of blogs, articles and videos.
For the vast majority of physical objects it seems utterly pointless.
I assign some digital token to a 1987 Donruss common in very average shape, register it with blockchain.... There's no way the assure that the token is attached to the exact card I'm selling, or one of the 50 pretty much identical others that are sitting in the same box.

I guess it could apply to uniquely identifiable items, but if the item is unique and I possess the physical object why do i need a digital token?
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:03 AM
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Only if that fits a 74 Norton Commando...
Unless it uses a chain 3/16 wide with a 1 inch pitch... no, it won't fit.
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:09 AM
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I think privacy would be an issue for many collectors too. I know that if I had a million dollar collection I would have no interest in letting anyone else know about it. Why would I opt to have my information attached to cards in a database that's searchable? Wouldn't that put a target on my back?
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:21 PM
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I think privacy would be an issue for many collectors too. I know that if I had a million dollar collection I would have no interest in letting anyone else know about it. Why would I opt to have my information attached to cards in a database that's searchable? Wouldn't that put a target on my back?
Blockchain doesn't actually imply full disclosure. It just facilitates it if the platform wants to go that way. For example, the blockchain behind Bitcoin is transparent in that anyone can see the balance of any Bitcoin wallet. But you don't get to see the name associated with that wallet. What you can see is the number associated with the bitcoin wallet (e.g. the account number).

In fact there are researchers that follow the bitcoin wallets associated with Spam emails to see how many people fall for them. They can see the balance in the wallet on the Blockchain but not who owns the wallet.

If you use the PSA registry.... Its a similar principle. You can see the cards in a registry, but not who owns it.
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankish View Post
I like the idea of tracking the history of cards to avoid trimming, other frauds, sales after theft, etc., but blockchain probably wouldn't make the most meaningful contribution in this case. The card is a physical asset that would need to be tagged permanently somehow. And if that were done then a simple registry at the time of its initial tagging (high res photo files, etc) would be sufficient for many of the issues.

If the card itself weren't tagged, what would stop someone from simply cracking the case, altering or selling the card, and tossing the slab in the trash?

That said, I'm not dismissing that blockchain technology can't be used in a meaningful way in this industry...just that there is a base, physical layer to the problem that must be addressed first.
It depends on how it is used, but honestly this concept can be done even without blockchain. The difference with blockchain is that the information is public.

So consider this situation where this type of data can be stored in blockchain:
- year / set / card number / card name
- grading company
- grade / subgrades
- cert number

That's great but grading registries are already pretty much free as it is right? Regrades aren't going to become magically tracked just because the data is public. What is the percentage of regrades or crossovers that are done where the grader is sent the card in the original slab? Because to me, that is the only situation where a regrade can be tracked, and that would require the grading company to connect the old cert to the new cert. Then how many times do these actions take place where the card is cracked out of the slab and sent to the company?

So in the situation where the original slab isn't sent, there is no way to know if that particular card was graded before. Putting info into blockchain isn't going to make any sort of difference. What would need to come first are ways to issue forensically unique identifiers to cards... which is what (as I understand it) that automated grading company is supposed to do. And even then (again) blockchain doesn't make a difference as long as the information is already public, and of course that type of identification will only apply to graded cards going forward and would not apply to anything that came before it.
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Old 05-11-2021, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UKCardGuy View Post
Blockchain doesn't actually imply full disclosure. It just facilitates it if the platform wants to go that way. For example, the blockchain behind Bitcoin is transparent in that anyone can see the balance of any Bitcoin wallet. But you don't get to see the name associated with that wallet. What you can see is the number associated with the bitcoin wallet (e.g. the account number).

In fact there are researchers that follow the bitcoin wallets associated with Spam emails to see how many people fall for them. They can see the balance in the wallet on the Blockchain but not who owns the wallet.

If you use the PSA registry.... Its a similar principle. You can see the cards in a registry, but not who owns it.

Right, but people are saying the advantage would be in protecting cards from being worked on. I guess I don’t understand how this would improve the flaws related to the registry.

Last edited by packs; 05-11-2021 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-11-2021, 04:40 PM
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Right, but people are saying the advantage would be in protecting cards from being worked on. I guess I donít understand how this would improve the flaws related to the registry.
I agree with you. It won't improve those flaws.
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