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  #701  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:31 PM
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PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.
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  #702  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:34 PM
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So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified? Do they get the Scarlet Letter - 'A' for Altered - stamped on them? Do they continue to reside in their current holders? I would assume that if (and I don't see this happening anytime soon) PSA buys back the cards, then would they regrade them with an 'Altered' designation on the flip. And sell them back into the market?

If so, what would keep someone from breaking one out and resubmitting? Maybe ruffing up the edges a bit and looking for a numerical grade?

I believe Operation Bullpen items got stamped and donated to kids (at least the bats and balls). I assume the paper items were destroyed.
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Last edited by Bigdaddy; 06-03-2019 at 09:36 PM.
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  #703  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:39 PM
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https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499

The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #704  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified?
I asked that as one of about 100 questions I submitted for PWCC to answer in the Blowout thread in the Member Feedback section. I presume PSA will hold onto them currently in case the FBI comes knocking.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #705  
Old 06-04-2019, 04:46 AM
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Here's a new wrinkle:
https://twitter.com/brentandbecca/st...22959170560000



Happened 10 years ago at a company that presumably gives out 9.5 grades, per the link. Basically, "Spend a bunch of money with us, and I can promise you great grades that get better over time." Brentandbecca is a card seller that busts hundreds of cases of product annually and sells sets and inserts/autographs from those online. Doesn't grade because he didn't like being promised grades.

This was mentioned in the thread about the former Beckett employee that is continually getting BGS 10 Black Labels on such a high percentage of his submissions that it would be statistically impossible. For those that think there is no discernible difference between a PSA 9 and 10, BGS scores cards on a 9, 9.5, 10 subgrade system in four different components: centering, surface, edges, and corners. If your card gets an average of 9.5 on those subgrades, it gets a 9.5 Gem Mint. If it has three 10 subgrades, and one 9.5, it gets a standard Pristine 10. If all four subgrades are BGS 10
"quality", it gets a Pristine 10 BLACK LABEL.

Brian Gray of Leaf Trading Cards, checkered history he has as well, currently employs the former Beckett employee, and intends to look into the submissions for any funny business. But an audit of BGS's process in giving out grades to customers is coming.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.

Last edited by swarmee; 06-04-2019 at 04:47 AM.
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  #706  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:34 AM
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D304 Wagner 2.5 to 4.5

Now working to regain your trust.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=100
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  #707  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499


The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.
That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?
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  #708  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:55 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?
It's more a liability issue of having an expensive card in their possession and it getting lost or damaged. Do you insure your Yugo and your Ferrari for the same price?
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 06-04-2019 at 08:55 AM.
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  #709  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:56 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?
Higher fees for more expensive stuff is pretty standard for authentications in other hobbies too.

If the expert is a real expert, the authenticity end of things can be very fast in a more informal setting. The guy who looked at a couple stamps for me at the 2006 international show took less than a minute for both. He didn't grade, but recommended getting a formal certificate for one but not the other. (One a fairly expensive and totally genuine stamp, the other an india paper proof that had been altered to appear to be the issued stamp (perforations added) a difference of a couple hundred at catalog value, and way more with the apparent centering. That centering was actually his first point against as they rarely come that well centered, and sell for multiples of catalog value.
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  #710  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:11 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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I think the grading companies are well aware that they are minting money for their customers, so wouldn't these higher fees be more in line with "we're making a lot of money for you, therefore we want a piece of the action too."
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  #711  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
D304 Wagner 2.5 to 4.5

Now working to regain your trust.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=100
A true crime of the worst degree.
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  #712  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I think the grading companies are well aware that they are minting money for their customers, so wouldn't these higher fees be more in line with "we're making a lot of money for you, therefore we want a piece of the action too."
I think that's exactly right.
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  #713  
Old 06-04-2019, 12:53 PM
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Agree.... Barry nailed it.
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  #714  
Old 06-04-2019, 01:07 PM
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I tend to agree with Barry as well as it makes no sense to me that I have to pay a higher grading fee just to protect my own card?

I would think they would have insurance in case something were to happen to my card, no?
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  #715  
Old 06-04-2019, 02:03 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I tend to agree with Barry as well as it makes no sense to me that I have to pay a higher grading fee just to protect my own card?

I would think they would have insurance in case something were to happen to my card, no?
That insurance would cost more the more value you have in the building.

If I'm grading cards, and you've sent in a nice 81 topps common... and I spill my coffee... I pretty much just pay you a few bucks for the wrecked card and maybe decide to not drink coffee at the desk. I probably don't even tell the ins co.

If you've sent me a Wagner... even a total rag of a card is what half a million?
If I tell the ins co that I'll regularly have a million + of other peoples stuff in the building at any time, they'll want a whole lot to insure that.
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  #716  
Old 06-04-2019, 02:08 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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I have 6 figures of consigned goods insurance costs me barely $1,000/ year
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  #717  
Old 06-04-2019, 03:42 PM
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Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496
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  #718  
Old 06-04-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496
And makes tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands. That fake rough cut has been fooling PSA graders for years it seems.
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  #719  
Old 06-04-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496
What’s crazy is that he took a large slice off one side to make it centered and he KNEW it would get past the graders!
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  #720  
Old 06-04-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
What’s crazy is that he took a large slice off one side to make it centered and he KNEW it would get past the graders!
Evidently, a rough cut means a factory cut to all the graders at PSA.
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  #721  
Old 06-04-2019, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe View Post
PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.
oh you're not out of line. In fact I think youve hit the bullseye. This is exactly what I feel has been happening way before this trimming and flipping PWCC scam has been proven. They are 50% there, IMHO. Maybe Brent Mastro will sing like a canary? I can't see that priss wanting to go to jail. He would not do well there. They would wipe that s*** eating grin right off his face in a hurry.
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  #722  
Old 06-04-2019, 04:44 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I prefer "this stupid" to which my answer is yes, yes, they are this stupid.
Newsflash!! Brent doesn't give a shit people....
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  #723  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:24 PM
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I saw this posted somewhere else but what is PSA's tolerance for size of the card? I think it was 1/32 or 1/64 of an inch but can't find it. Thanks.
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  #724  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:45 PM
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I remember reading through the fake autograph thread a couple months ago with many people claiming “this is why I don’t buy autographs” etc. Also all the comments about PSA being the undisputed king for life. Figured at some point the graded card world would come crashing down to earth. Don’t get me wrong I dabble in autographs, raw and graded cards but I don’t/won’t pay huge premiums if a card is an 8 versus a 9 versus a 10. I’ve never understood the intrigue of the registry. Will be curious what this will all look like a year from now.
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  #725  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Newsflash!! Brent doesn't give a shit people....
It pains me to say it , but I agree with you on that.
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  #726  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:58 PM
MULLINS5 MULLINS5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?
They charge more because if they screw up (like put a numerical grade on an altered card) they're on the hook to return more money if a buyer uses their guarantee.
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  #727  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:28 PM
dwinters dwinters is offline
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Default whats next?

started with autographed cards....then high end (and lower) cards....and then autographs?

imagine if psa is this bad, how many fake autos are certed by them?

psa authentication is worthless.
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  #728  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:29 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
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Whether we want to admit it or not, this is where we are. NOWHERE!! I have been on the board for 10 years and the topics of Rick Probstein and Brent Huigens always, always, always keep coming up, since day one...And not a freaking thing gets done, period, end of story. This is a corrupt hobby, and the rich just keep on keepin on getting rich....We have thread after thread, but what in the Hell gets done? NOTHING Rick Probstein is the biggest dick in the Hobby, and he loves it....Brent is a chronic liar and he's used to it by now and laughs....

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 06-04-2019 at 06:33 PM.
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  #729  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:13 AM
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Kevin, part of me says you are probably right. But I’ve read on BO that folks are planning to distribute flyers at the National to get the word out and create an Altered Cert Number website to ensure items get removed from the Registry. That would be interesting especially if one of the insiders admits all their cards were altered in every submission, even where there is no “Before” picture.
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  #730  
Old 06-05-2019, 09:04 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
I have 6 figures of consigned goods insurance costs me barely $1,000/ year
That's a pleasant surprise.
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  #731  
Old 06-05-2019, 11:58 AM
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Default Recommended Reading

Anyone following this story should definitely read this recently revived post and PWCCs response:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...09#post1885409

The funny thing is when I first was reading this post, I thought it was brand new and a little behind the curve because it seemed to be referencing something that everyone already knows is going on.

Now I realize it was 2-years ahead of its time!
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  #732  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:01 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
Kevin, part of me says you are probably right. But I’ve read on BO that folks are planning to distribute flyers at the National to get the word out and create an Altered Cert Number website to ensure items get removed from the Registry. That would be interesting especially if one of the insiders admits all their cards were altered in every submission, even where there is no “Before” picture.
some people are planning on giving away these cards at the National
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  #733  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:09 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?
VERY NICE! Have Scissorhands do some recoloring and trimming and you'll be around 15-20K. Send it in to brent mastro, he'll walk you through it.
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  #734  
Old 07-09-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
Advertisement as a whole not just one client...we have many SCL, PSA, Lelands, PWCC, Just Rip It, R & R, etc...all those combined make up 7%
So why did you reinstate PWCC ads on your website? Do you think they're a good company to be promoting after all you've seen recently?
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