NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for BSelling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Babe Ruth Cards
t206 Ty Cobb
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Baseball T201-T217
Baseball E90-E107
T205 Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Goudey Cards
Vintage Baseball Memorabilia
Baseball Exhibit Cards
Baseball Strip Cards
Baseball Baking Cards
Sporting News Cards
Play Ball Cards
Joe DiMaggio Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Bowman 1951-1955
Football Cards

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 08-29-2012, 05:42 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is online now
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smtjoy View Post
Just my guess but if you look the same buyer purchased the PSA 8 from Probstein123 and then when it was upgraded to a PSA 9 and relisted they win the card again from Probstein123, sure looks like a consignor bidder/shill won his own card the second time so then they decide to consign it over to PWCC and they now know the ceiling bid of the two underbidders ($701.77 and $575) from the last auction. I wonder if they tried a second chance offer on the underbidder and they declined so just relist it with another consignor. This is getting old.
Wow! As a seller, how could Probstein not know this? Especially when he mails the card and the auction check to the same address! But I'm sure someone will chime in, making excuses for him saying that he does a lot of volume, blah, blah, blah and doesn't pay attention to all that.
__________________
Bullionaire
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 08-29-2012, 07:32 AM
Deertick Deertick is offline
Jim M.arinari
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Where Forgeries Abound, FL
Posts: 1,068
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew H View Post
So it's ok for a consignor to buy his cards back from an auction???? This is not considered shilling as long as they pay the premium? I always assumed I was bidding against other potential buyers in an honest auction.
It's not considered a shill. He placed one max bid, and as long as eBay gets paid, no problem.


Does anyone know it eBay has any specific rules about consignments? This is a relatively new area and while they prohibit (and prevent) someone from bidding on their own listing, I'm not sure that ownership is a qualifying factor currently.
__________________
"If you ever discover the sneakers for far more shoes in your everyday individual, and also have a wool, will not disregard the going connected with sneakers by Isabel Marant a person." =AcellaGet
Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 08-29-2012, 08:10 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Wow! As a seller, how could Probstein not know this? Especially when he mails the card and the auction check to the same address! But I'm sure someone will chime in, making excuses for him saying that he does a lot of volume, blah, blah, blah and doesn't pay attention to all that.
Hmmm.... Moral outrage from a guy who dodges jury duty. How can anyone take it seriously considering the source.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #404  
Old 08-29-2012, 08:24 AM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Ok, I'll admit it. I've never served jury duty a day in my life (and I'm 41 years old). In my house, those notices get thrown away.

Think of me as you wish, but I work for a living and don't have time for that. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but let them call the people that are unemployeed and living on unemployment assistance. After all, we're giving them money, let them earn it.

I don't mean to offend anyone that's unemployeed, I've been there myself and wish that on no one. My point is that they have the time and there are plenty of folks to pool from (and they're being paid anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Hmmm.... Moral outrage from a guy who dodges jury duty. How can anyone take it seriously considering the source.

Steve B
+1
Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 08-29-2012, 08:29 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

Wow. Great attitude.
Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 08-29-2012, 08:54 AM
markf31 markf31 is offline
Mark Fox
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Wow! As a seller, how could Probstein not know this? Especially when he mails the card and the auction check to the same address! But I'm sure someone will chime in, making excuses for him saying that he does a lot of volume, blah, blah, blah and doesn't pay attention to all that.
I'm sure Probstein is quite aware of the situation, and we honestly have no way of knowing how/if they're handling it. I would hope they would no longer accept consignments from this person/user.

The solution is quite simple really. The problem here is that Probstein has no power as the Ebay seller, as per Ebay's rules, to not complete the transaction with the winning bidder unless specific conditions are listed in the auctions. Probsten would have to, and more importanly should have to, specifically write into their auction listing that the consignor is not eligible to bid on the auction. And they should require any consignor to release to them their Ebay ID prior to listing.

Last edited by markf31; 08-29-2012 at 08:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:10 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is online now
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Hmmm.... Moral outrage from a guy who dodges jury duty. How can anyone take it seriously considering the source.

Steve B
When I made that statement, I knew it would offend some of the self righteous hypocrites on the board. Obviously it did. At least I have the balls to speak the truth, whether you agree with what I said or not.

I donít see any difference between dodging jury duty or the other folks in that thread speaking of ways to dodge it or asking advice on how to dodge it. Why didnít you address those folks? Because your comment wasnít really about jury duty, was it? It was really a way to divert the attention from the real issue here - Probstein allowing his bidders to shill their own auctions.

The smart ones will see that and stick to the issue, the dumb ones will make additional comments about jury duty.
__________________
Bullionaire
Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:12 AM
Matthew H Matthew H is offline
Matt Hall
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,817
Default

I've always wondered what's the point of consigning an item to a seller on eBay... Now I know! It's a legal shilling loophole! Wow what a bunh of greedy bastards.
Reply With Quote
  #409  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:13 AM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is online now
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 9,964
Default

matt...agreed!!! It shouldn't really matter who's selling a card on ebay(as long as it's real and not missrepresented).
Reply With Quote
  #410  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:15 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,642
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
When I made that statement, I knew it would offend some of the self righteous hypocrites on the board. Obviously it did. At least I have the balls to speak the truth, whether you agree with what I said or not.
Like

As long as you're having fun and the responses are not creating too much angst for you, I say go for it.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #411  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:23 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
When I made that statement, I knew it would offend some of the self righteous hypocrites on the board. Obviously it did. At least I have the balls to speak the truth, whether you agree with what I said or not.

I donít see any difference between dodging jury duty or the other folks in that thread speaking of ways to dodge it or asking advice on how to dodge it. Why didnít you address those folks? Because your comment wasnít really about jury duty, was it? It was really a way to divert the attention from the real issue here - Probstein allowing his bidders to shill their own auctions.

The smart ones will see that and stick to the issue, the dumb ones will make additional comments about jury duty.
David your statement does bother me, because the right to a jury trial -- which I very seriously doubt you want to do away with or compromise -- does depend on ordinary citizens cooperating with their civic obligations to serve. Does that make me a self-righteous hypocrite?
Reply With Quote
  #412  
Old 08-29-2012, 09:44 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is online now
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Does that make me a self-righteous hypocrite?
Only if you choose to use my words against me, while ignoring the others in that thread who also shared ways or asked advice on how to get out of jury duty. Now, if you wish to continue to discuss the topic, let's move it over to that thread.
__________________
Bullionaire
Reply With Quote
  #413  
Old 08-29-2012, 10:08 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 30,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Now, if you wish to continue to discuss the topic, let's move it over to that thread.


Agreed...and thanks to all for keeping it civil while arguing .


.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #414  
Old 08-29-2012, 07:40 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
When I made that statement, I knew it would offend some of the self righteous hypocrites on the board. Obviously it did. At least I have the balls to speak the truth, whether you agree with what I said or not.

I donít see any difference between dodging jury duty or the other folks in that thread speaking of ways to dodge it or asking advice on how to dodge it. Why didnít you address those folks? Because your comment wasnít really about jury duty, was it? It was really a way to divert the attention from the real issue here - Probstein allowing his bidders to shill their own auctions.

The smart ones will see that and stick to the issue, the dumb ones will make additional comments about jury duty.
I didn't participate in the other thread so I'll reply to those accusations here. As I said, I didn't participate in the other thread. Mostly because my advice would be to stay.
I've been called 3 times, and served all 3. Mass has a one day one trial system. Twice I never got to the courtroom, third time I was dismissed almost immediately. (Date rape trial, I was 35 and single. The prosecutor sent me home. If he'd only known my attitude towards some things. )

I don't shill bid.

So no hypocrisy here.

I didn't address other folks, because most of them were mentioning legitimate reasons for not serving. That's part of the system, and someone can be excused before serving if the court finds the reason acceptable.

I did make my comment because you chose to push your hypocrisy by reviving a thread that had pretty much faded to an end. Yes, you have the balls to speak the truth as you see it. Which is fine but annoying as heck if it's just restating the same stuff over again.

And, some on topic questions.

Do you sell on Ebay?
Do you run thousands of auctions every month?
If yes do you check the ID of every bidder on every auction to make sure it's not the consigner?
Do you check the relationships of every bidder to make sure they aren't the consigners friends/relatives?
If so, how do you find the time? Probstein has over 21,000 current items and just over 3000 auctions. If checking took only one minute each that would be more than 48 hours of work

He's already said he blocked the consigner. I'm not sure just what you expect him to do? Block all consigners who are probably also customers? Ebay won't let you block buyers from one auction but not another.

Realistically, all someone can do with that sort of volume is block them if they're caught.

I do think there's something with the consignor and PSA that should be looked into. If I was in charge of PSA I would. But It would also be kept as an internal matter unless I found a big problem.

Steve Birmingham
Reply With Quote
  #415  
Old 08-29-2012, 07:54 PM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is online now
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
...the dumb ones will make additional comments about jury duty.

Hello, Steve
__________________
Bullionaire
Reply With Quote
  #416  
Old 08-30-2012, 04:57 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,814
Default

What? No answers to the on topic questions? I can use smaller words if you need that.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #417  
Old 08-30-2012, 05:02 PM
Matthew H Matthew H is offline
Matt Hall
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,817
Default

Let's just all agree that shill bidding is ok, as long as its in a place where it's too hard to police it.

Thread over.
Reply With Quote
  #418  
Old 08-24-2013, 11:41 AM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanu View Post
Maybe the buyer already has all of those cards
LOL. That is hilarious.
Reply With Quote
  #419  
Old 08-24-2013, 12:07 PM
thehoodedcoder thehoodedcoder is offline
Kevin Qui.nn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMPEP View Post
I knew I'd be in the minority on this one!

In my opinion ... if there are two legitimate bidders above a shill bid ... eh. The are two other bidders would have pushed it to the same price any way. There was no change in the eventual sales price.

When the underbidder is fraudulent ... then yes, we have a problem ... because the high bidder would not have had to pay his highest price. So the $475 bid is a bit more concerning, because I see your concerns about the actual underbidder. (There could have been two shill underbidders in that auction, in which case the winner was defrauded.)

Cheers,
Patrick
the problem with this logic is the person who is schill bidding or under bidding, (which ultimately are the same thing, the user bidding on their own item) is that the person doesn't know what is going to happen after they put their bid in.

right? at the time of committing the act, they are essentially the same thing.

that is like saying, i robbed the bank, when it was illegal, but they made it legal a year later so its ok that i did it. the problem with that is you don't get out of jail because its now legal to rob banks. obviously robbing banks is a bad example but you get the point.

kevin
Reply With Quote
  #420  
Old 08-24-2013, 05:43 PM
PolarBear's Avatar
PolarBear PolarBear is offline
Don
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 633
Default

The ironic point of this thread are the people mocking someone for paying X dollars for a piece of cardboard with a picture on it, when they themselves pay 2X dollars for a piece of cardboard with a different picture on it.
Reply With Quote
  #421  
Old 08-25-2013, 03:50 AM
deadballfreaK's Avatar
deadballfreaK deadballfreaK is offline
Ken Madden
Ken.neth D. M@dden
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Little Egypt
Posts: 547
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
What is a "legitimate" shill? Is that like a "legal" fraud? I guess we need to define terms before we discuss further because I'm not getting it. By definition, shilling is fraud. By definition, fraud carries both civil and criminal penalties. Shilling is neither legitimate nor legal. Period.

Insofar as whether you are willing to pay $1,000 more than someone else for a given card, that's wonderful but irrelevant to the discussion. Many people are willing to do that. But what they aren't willing (or shouldn't be willing to do), at least IMO, is pay $1,000 more than a person who has no real intent to purchase the item, but who has bid it up anyway. I guess that's where we diverge.
+1
__________________
T206-519/524 T205-201/221 T207-63/200 T213-2 -65/185 E90-1 95/120 Topps 1954,1959,1964 Bowman 1954 complete
Deals competed with: jb217676, marcdelpercio, dog*dirt, srs1a, KennyCole, ullmandds, RCMcKenzie, edhans, dboneesq, mybuddyinc, nineunder71
Reply With Quote
  #422  
Old 08-25-2013, 04:12 AM
toledo_mudhen's Avatar
toledo_mudhen toledo_mudhen is offline
Lonnie Nagel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South Texas (on the beach)
Posts: 1,066
Default

[QUOTE=honus94566;1026687]I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

No way that I am going to believe simply that "Someone got the card regraded". This is total BS and you wont convince me that there wasn't a "payoff" in there somewhere...............

Which leads to my final point - I buy PSA slabs to resell - I buy SGC slabs to keep.............
__________________
Lonnie Nagel
T206 : 39/520 : 7.5%

Creator of SetBilder
Vintage Sports Card Software
www.SetBilder.com
Reply With Quote
  #423  
Old 08-28-2013, 08:50 AM
RichardSimon's Avatar
RichardSimon RichardSimon is offline
Richard Simon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York City
Posts: 5,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
It's already in his registry and it boosted the GPA of his set keeping him at number one and that's probably all that matters to him.
And he can keep bragging that his is bigger than yours.
The registry thing is such a scam,,, just a marketing idea that struck gold for the TPA.
Hope they never try it with autographs,,, we have enough problems on that end but thank goodness no registry crap.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history.
-
Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first.
www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports
--
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow
Reply With Quote
  #424  
Old 08-28-2013, 08:51 AM
RichardSimon's Avatar
RichardSimon RichardSimon is offline
Richard Simon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York City
Posts: 5,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by honus94566 View Post
No way that I am going to believe simply that "Someone got the card regraded". This is total BS and you wont convince me that there wasn't a "payoff" in there somewhere...............
You mean PSA employees are not honest?? OMG I never knew.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history.
-
Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first.
www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports
--
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow

Last edited by RichardSimon; 08-28-2013 at 08:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #425  
Old 05-09-2014, 07:45 AM
WhenItWasAHobby's Avatar
WhenItWasAHobby WhenItWasAHobby is offline
Dan Marke1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston-area
Posts: 650
Default

I just saw this on the CU Board. There was a 1968 Topps Ryan rookie that was recently graded PSA 10 (the first and only) and according to Joe Orlando the card sold privately for $400,000.

Reading through the thread, one poster (Last post on Page 2) made this statement, which I have no reason to doubt since it would seem highly unlikely that the allegedly finest example just recently turned up:

I was at the Cow Palace show and at the PSA booth this guy said he has sent in his card 20 times and finally got the grade he wanted.

So there you go.


If this is true, then the submitter netted an easy $375,000 on this bump-up and a collector paid that extra $375,000 for a card that 19 out of 20 times was graded PSA 9 (or maybe less several times).

What insanity!

Here's the thread:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...05&STARTPAGE=1

Last edited by WhenItWasAHobby; 05-09-2014 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #426  
Old 05-09-2014, 08:08 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,291
Default

Dan- do the graders know if a card they are examining is being submitted for the twentieth time? Would that kind of pressure them into finally giving it that hoped for bump, especially if it is a good customer?

I won't even go into why there is someone out there who feels it's a 400K card. That's for another time.
Reply With Quote
  #427  
Old 05-09-2014, 08:11 AM
bobbyw8469's Avatar
bobbyw8469 bobbyw8469 is offline
Robert Williams
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 7,259
Default

What insanity! I don't know if that is good for the hobby, or bad for the hobby. I am torn.
Reply With Quote
  #428  
Old 05-09-2014, 08:47 AM
WhenItWasAHobby's Avatar
WhenItWasAHobby WhenItWasAHobby is offline
Dan Marke1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston-area
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Dan- do the graders know if a card they are examining is being submitted for the twentieth time? Would that kind of pressure them into finally giving it that hoped for bump, especially if it is a good customer?

I won't even go into why there is someone out there who feels it's a 400K card. That's for another time.
Barry,

It's my understanding that as a "PSA policy" a PSA grader is not supposed to know who the submitter is.

But you bring up another good point. PSA made a lot of money on this same card and probably other cards from the same submitter since cracking out and bumping up has become a business in itself for a number of dealers and I don't know of any public discouragement by PSA to instruct submitters from playing the "crack-out" game.
Reply With Quote
  #429  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:06 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is online now
D@v!d J@m3s
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Dan- do the graders know if a card they are examining is being submitted for the twentieth time? Would that kind of pressure them into finally giving it that hoped for bump, especially if it is a good customer?
I don't know about pressure, but what about incentive? A dirty grader (and I believe there are some) might be tempted to bump a card if he knew the submitter and there was something in it for him - say like 5% ($19K) or 10% ($38K) of the profit?
__________________
Bullionaire
Reply With Quote
  #430  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:10 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 30,321
Default

If I were the authorities and had any inkling of wrongdoing, or was investigating the hobby, I would probably have a conversation with the grader that bumped the card, the submitter and the graders manager. It wouldn't hurt to to see what they would say...

And if it's true that the card went from a 9 to a 10 after that many bumps, then I really don't know what to say about the people playing the "10" game. I wouldn't want to be the last one holding that potato though.
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 05-09-2014 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #431  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:15 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

I give the owner credit for persistence.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #432  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:29 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,291
Default

Dan- I realize submissions are supposed to be anonymous. But take a high profile card like that, and assume the same grader has seen it at least a few times over that period, and it's really not all that anonymous anymore. When you are working at a company full time, you get to know alot about what is going on, and most would certainly recognize that card. I mean, we're talking about the same card in the grading room twenty times!

David- I've always been concerned with graders accepting money under the table. That's why it's so difficult to take any of these grades seriously. Of course, I have no idea what may actually go on.
Reply With Quote
  #433  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:40 AM
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards's Avatar
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards I Only Smoke 4 the Cards is offline
Alex
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,111
Default

This information just strengthens my mantra (shared by many others) of buy the card and not the holder.
__________________
Tackling the Monster
T206 = 213/524
HOFs = 13/76
SLers = 33/48
Horizontals = 6/6

ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage.
Reply With Quote
  #434  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:11 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
I don't know about pressure, but what about incentive? A dirty grader (and I believe there are some) might be tempted to bump a card if he knew the submitter and there was something in it for him - say like 5% ($19K) or 10% ($38K) of the profit?
That is inherent in third party grading.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #435  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:29 AM
MattyC's Avatar
MattyC MattyC is offline
Matt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: CA
Posts: 2,163
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
That's why it's so difficult to take any of these grades seriously.
I believe if you agree with a grade, take it seriously. If not, then don't. We grade the graders with our choices of what specific cards we choose for our collections.

Sometimes the card meets the stated criteria and looks great. Sometimes it meets the criteria, but lacks eye appeal. Sometimes the card is under graded, and merits a bump-- if one wants that third-party validation or enhancement of their financial outlay, or is just out to flip it for profit. TPGs are just rendering their opinion, that's all it is, end of the day. And different graders will assign different grades to different cards on different days. It's also a business for profit; hence it's in their best interest to err on the side of stringent grading, so as to spur submissions for reviews or crack and resubs.

Last edited by MattyC; 05-09-2014 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #436  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:03 AM
howard38 howard38 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby View Post
I just saw this on the CU Board. There was a 1968 Topps Ryan rookie that was recently graded PSA 10 (the first and only) and according to Joe Orlando the card sold privately for $400,000.

Reading through the thread, one poster (Last post on Page 2) made this statement, which I have no reason to doubt since it would seem highly unlikely that the allegedly finest example just recently turned up:

I was at the Cow Palace show and at the PSA booth this guy said he has sent in his card 20 times and finally got the grade he wanted.

So there you go.


If this is true, then the submitter netted as easy $375,000 on this bump-up and a collector paid that extra $375,000 for a card that 19 out of 20 times was graded PSA 9 (or maybe less several times).

What insanity!

Here's the thread:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...05&STARTPAGE=1
If this is true (I don't necessarily doubt it but it's slim evidence) I'm impressed that a card that has been cracked out of a holder and mailed back and forth so many times is still anywhere near a 10.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872
Reply With Quote
  #437  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:04 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

It really is bizarre in one sense that putting a different flip on the same card makes a $375 K difference. But there is a market for flips that is now just as strong as the market for cards, so that's how it goes. PS In my opinion there is no meaningful difference between a 9 and 10 other than the flip. But in a market for flips that is a meaningful difference.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-09-2014 at 11:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #438  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:08 AM
glchen's Avatar
glchen glchen is offline
_G@ґy*€hℯη_
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,653
Default

Frankly, IMHO, this is the stupidity of buying 10's when there is often little if any difference with a 9 other than 10X the price tag.
Reply With Quote
  #439  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:16 AM
MattyC's Avatar
MattyC MattyC is offline
Matt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: CA
Posts: 2,163
Default

I'd even extend that to apply to all cards in adjacent grades. If you'd really like a 6, there's one hiding out in an elite 5 holder somewhere, etc. Buy the card.

Last edited by MattyC; 05-09-2014 at 01:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #440  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:22 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 30,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It really is bizarre in one sense that putting a different flip on the same card makes a $375 K difference. But there is a market for flips that is now just as strong as the market for cards, so that's how it goes. PS In my opinion there is no meaningful difference between a 9 and 10 other than the flip. But in a market for flips that is a meaningful difference.
You know what they say....in the land of the blind a one-eyed man is king!!
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #441  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:43 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 22,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
You know what they say....in the land of the blind a one-eyed man is king!!
And beauty is in the eye of the beholder of the holder.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #442  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:45 AM
4815162342's Avatar
4815162342 4815162342 is offline
Daryl
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
And beauty is in the eye of the beholder of the holder.
I had been thinking that beauty was on the flip of the holder, but your quote is much better.
Reply With Quote
  #443  
Old 05-09-2014, 01:18 PM
MattyC's Avatar
MattyC MattyC is offline
Matt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: CA
Posts: 2,163
Default

I do think folks can espouse different collecting philosophies without indirectly crapping on what 10-buyers like to do with their loot-- my earlier post about seeking the lower grade example is just how I do it. If someone loves a 10, be happy.

Last edited by MattyC; 05-09-2014 at 02:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #444  
Old 05-09-2014, 02:03 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 9,701
Default

Wow, that's some bump! I suppose if a seller has the stomach for repeatedly cracking out and sending back a multi-thousand dollar card, it is possible to get lucky. Doesn't make the result less random or subjective, though. It is still alchemy and I still think those who drink the PSA Kool-Aid are in for a rude awakening when the music stops playing.
__________________
At ten all I thought about was card collecting. At twenty all I thought about was women. At thirty all I thought about was success. At forty all I thought about was money. Now all I think about is retirement...because all I want to think about is card collecting!
Reply With Quote
  #445  
Old 05-09-2014, 03:36 PM
yanksfan09's Avatar
yanksfan09 yanksfan09 is offline
_Er!ck*L.ew1n_
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 1,734
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
Wow, that's some bump! I suppose if a seller has the stomach for repeatedly cracking out and sending back a multi-thousand dollar card, it is possible to get lucky. Doesn't make the result less random or subjective, though. It is still alchemy and I still think those who drink the PSA Kool-Aid are in for a rude awakening when the music stops playing.
I like that, well said. It's just utter madness.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg th.jpg (22.9 KB, 218 views)
__________________
Er1ck.L. ---D381 seeker http://www.flickr.com/photos/30236659@N04/sets/

Last edited by yanksfan09; 05-09-2014 at 03:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #446  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:54 PM
japhi japhi is offline
Ma.tt Lan.dry
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 125
Default

I don't follow that Ryan card, but it look top grade to me. Lots of talk about graders being greased and buyers buying flips...anyone have opinions on why that card is not one of the best graded?
Reply With Quote
  #447  
Old 05-10-2014, 08:23 AM
WhenItWasAHobby's Avatar
WhenItWasAHobby WhenItWasAHobby is offline
Dan Marke1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston-area
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by japhi View Post
I don't follow that Ryan card, but it look top grade to me. Lots of talk about graders being greased and buyers buying flips...anyone have opinions on why that card is not one of the best graded?
Well it's really hard to tell what is the best without seeing many of the other Ryan rookies that graded 9.

But for me personally there are several issues that are bothersome. First, the subjectivity of grading in itself that could change the value of the card by $375,000 is disturbing. The corners of that card on both sides better be perfect under 10X magnification. It's a safe guess that they are not otherwise they would have received a PSA 10 grade the first time submitted.

Then there's the Mint vs. Gem Mint debate. If one is going to differentiate different mint cards as some being better than others, then for me, a Gem Mint card should be unimprovable in every aspect to warrant such a designation. I'm certain under some scrutiny that this PSA 10 Ryan rookie will have some flaws.

Then there's the issue of investing a lot of money into cards that could be altered. I have no idea if this Ryan card is altered or not. Of course we also don't know if some or all of the previous 19 submissions received the Evidence of Trimming designation. But I'm now convinced that if someone wants to get doctored cards graded, with a enough persistence it will happen and that's why I have little interest in tying up money in vintage "mint" or "gem mint" cards.

But to each his own or as an old hobby dinosaur used to tell me, "There's a paddle for every behind."
Reply With Quote
  #448  
Old 05-10-2014, 11:01 AM
Jeffrompa's Avatar
Jeffrompa Jeffrompa is offline
Jeff Lowe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 491
Default

My only question would be if the seller already knows what grade he will get before he cracks the card and resubmits ? That's where the rub is or the money is I guess .
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A New Idea for Grading Photographic Cards barrysloate Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 35 07-02-2011 09:10 AM
Grading discussion- Revolutionizing :) the hobby... Leon Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 70 11-19-2010 02:17 PM
Should Seller Reimburse Buyer For Grading Fees? Buythatcard Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 28 11-24-2009 10:08 PM
some issues with grading services Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 05-24-2008 06:37 PM
Grading strip cards and hand cut cards Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 08-06-2005 12:16 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:16 PM.


ebay GSB