NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-13-2022, 08:11 AM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,322
Default Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

We will never know all the truth's about the card but some of the claims defy what we do know about the printing starting with the first claim that the card originated from a sheet that Alan Ray's father supposedly purchased at a Florida flea market. We now know without a doubt that there were several vertical rows of each subject on a sheet in every series printed in the set so where are all the other Wagner's that would have been on that sheet?

What I feel is another big myth is that Plank was also on that sheet with Wagner and it is claimed that the Conlon Plank came from that sheet. So like the Wagner where are all the other Plank's from that sheet and to a greater degree the back numbers on the two cards indicate that there is very little chance that Plank and Wagner were ever on a T206 sheet together.

Her are the numbers on the Wagner's and the 150 series Planks in the t206resource galleries
img184.jpg

The only good evidence we have of previous claims about the card is Mastro admitting in court that he trimmed the sides of the Wagner.

We really know very little about the most famous and talked about card in the hobby. There are no really good pictures or scans of the card that I know of and very little talk about it from any of previous owners.

A member asked me to add the 350's for comparison to my post which is simple enough since Wagner wasn't printed with 350 backs and Plank is only confirmed with SC350/30.

Last edited by Pat R; 11-18-2022 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Added 350/30
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-13-2022, 10:06 AM
jggames jggames is offline
Jason
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 225
Default

Here is a video of Mastro talking about the Wagner (and his trim) and the stack of other cards that were supposedly cut from the same sheet.

https://youtu.be/CRdjnVcNNn0?t=509
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-13-2022, 10:21 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

I think I have seen that video before, but it was really interesting again, on a few fronts. The comments below, at the end, are telling too.

I had lunch with the person who graded the card first, recently, as mentioned before. He said, at the time, there was no evidence to him that the card had been altered. It looked like an almost perfect card and he gave it the grade it should have received.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jggames View Post
Here is a video of Mastro talking about the Wagner (and his trim) and the stack of other cards that were supposedly cut from the same sheet.

https://youtu.be/CRdjnVcNNn0?t=509
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-13-2022, 10:56 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,302
Default

I think point 2 is the big problem. I think it’s entirely possible there was only one Wagner, presumably it was not a complete sheet but a sheet fragment. We know many subjects in multiple sets didn’t repeat all the way down a column. It’s feasible that the Wagner was on the top row of the fragment, if the fragment existed and was the origin.

I doubt Plank was on the same sheet as the Wagner. They may have both come from the same origin, perhaps a handful of strips?

While I’m against sheet or strip destruction entirely, it’s really a shame there appears to be no record of this find or whatever it was for educational purposes, no photograph that actually exists of what it was before cutting. We have millions of cards from this 1909-1912 card project, but a tiny handful of uncut items. I’ve been trying to track down evidence of every little scrap of uncut material from the T cards known and turned up almost nothing that people can provide any reasonable evidence for the existence of.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-13-2022, 11:21 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,196
Default

As for strips of T cards, I am not sure if you are talking only T206 but there have been some strips known. I used to own these below. I think there are quite a few out there in collections, but not shown often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I think point 2 is the big problem. I think it’s entirely possible there was only one Wagner, presumably it was not a complete sheet but a sheet fragment. We know many subjects in multiple sets didn’t repeat all the way down a column. It’s feasible that the Wagner was on the top row of the fragment, if the fragment existed and was the origin.

I doubt Plank was on the same sheet as the Wagner. They may have both come from the same origin, perhaps a handful of strips?

While I’m against sheet or strip destruction entirely, it’s really a shame there appears to be no record of this find or whatever it was for educational purposes, no photograph that actually exists of what it was before cutting. We have millions of cards from this 1909-1912 card project, but a tiny handful of uncut items. I’ve been trying to track down evidence of every little scrap of uncut material from the T cards known and turned up almost nothing that people can provide any reasonable evidence for the existence of.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pt2122stripx4.jpg (166.5 KB, 1104 views)
File Type: jpg pt2121proofstrip2.jpg (90.5 KB, 1103 views)
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-13-2022, 11:31 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
As for strips of T cards, I am not sure if you are talking only T206 but there have been some strips known. I used to own these below. I think there are quite a few out there in collections, but not shown often.
There are a number, “a tiny handful” as I claimed, - but the amount is tiny. There’s some Obaks I believe are a different project from the one credited to American Lithogrpahy and the ATC, though it seems to be much more complicated than that oft stated credit.

There’s 2 T25 strips. There’s the Wagner prototype strip. There’s a T62 proof sheet or two. There’s 92% of a T220-1 sheet. There’s some E229 fragments (I know, E, however I suspect they used the same contracts as the T cards and were a Brett production at the same time as part of the general project). Off the top of head I can’t think of any others that were part of this project, I probably have records of 1 or 2 more in my notebook. I have been told about a number of others, but from hobbyists unable or unwilling to provide a picture or any evidence that it actually exists. I would love to see others, we have and can learn a lot from other sets that were part of this 1909-1912 promotion.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-13-2022, 02:41 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,297
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
As for strips of T cards, I am not sure if you are talking only T206 but there have been some strips known. I used to own these below. I think there are quite a few out there in collections, but not shown often.
Top strip is cool. Shame there's a little schmutz on it though...
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-13-2022, 06:29 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jggames View Post
Here is a video of Mastro talking about the Wagner (and his trim) and the stack of other cards that were supposedly cut from the same sheet.

https://youtu.be/CRdjnVcNNn0?t=509
And that's where some of these hobby myths start, he said "it was obvious all the cards were cut from an uncut sheet maybe one sheet I don't know" and the fact could be that the cards originated from an employee who cut up several sheets and the stack could have already passed through one or more peoples hands.

The best evidence I've seen of a group of cards coming from an uncut sheet are the group of Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory no prints and another group of regular production Sweet Caporal 350-460 that were hand cut from sheets
at some point and sold by the same ebay seller. The no prints I believe came from one or two sheets and the regular prints came from one or two different sheets.

If you look at the groups of the same subjects they have the same registration and the same color shift mis-alignments.

From the no prints notice the registration and the green color shift on the bottom left corner on all of the Pfeister's
Pfeister _1__1.jpg

same thing on these regular print Ford's with the registration and color shift mis-alignment on the bottom border
Ford _1__1.jpg
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Phoenix and Surrounding Areas Card Shops Danny Smith Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 03-22-2015 12:33 PM
The Most Famous Hobby Person that Posts Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 33 01-09-2007 05:26 PM
Famous hobby fistfights Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 11 02-18-2005 07:24 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:32 AM.


ebay GSB