T215 Red Cross actually a T206?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Absolutely, Scott. And I was just making an observation about some of the discussions on the board pertaining to this subject. If guys want to put T213 or T215 into their T206 sets, it doesn't bother me at all.

I DO agree with your thinking on this subject, but the only important thing is whether or not Frank would consider our monster counts valid if our T206 set was adulterated with a few Type 1 Coupon and Red Cross cards.

Frank?

[edhans]

[QUOTE=Leon;1056120]Everything doesn't fit perfectly. He very frequently said he knew he made mistakes and his work was a work in progress. QUOTE]

Seems to me to be Burdick's own permission to amend his work as new discoveries were made and new research undertaken. I don't see why sequential numbers shouldn't be assigned to newly discovered "unc" issues and letter designations changed to reflect new information. I think that even the T213-1/T206 discussion should be on the table. For what it's worth, I'm inclined to think that the type 1 Coupons are just another T206 brand, but that T215-1s are properly classified as a separate issue.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1910 COUPON (T213-1)

Most of you guys know my opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards. In the past 6 years, I have posted several threads on this subject.

Check out these threads........
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=1910+coupon
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=Quintuplicate
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=1910+coupon

It is a NO-BRAINER, these cards are indeed the 16th T-brand of the T206 set; as, they were issued in the Spring/Summer of 1910 (concurrently with the AMERICAN BEAUTY,
BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards).
With all due respect to Burdick....he mis-classified this sub-set of 68 cards. Burdick's records indicate that they were issued "circa 1913-15"......this timeline is absolutely incorrect !
So, we'll give Burdick a "mulligan" on this one


This group of five T-brands were printed & issued circa Spring/Summer of 1910



RED CROSS (T215-1)





This issue is somewhat more complicated, as it derives subjects from the 150 series, 350 series, and the 460 series. Although, some of the RED CROSS cards were issued
in 1910, others were issued in early 1912 (evident by team trades reflected in their captions). So, I'm not ready to venture out on a limb and say the T215-1 should be
classified as part of the T206 set. Check out this thread........
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=red+cross

The 1910 COUPON....absolutely YES


TED Z

Ed

You and I (and, if I recall correctly, Scott Brockelman) appear to be the only guys on this forum that think the 1910 COUPON cards are really T206's. Perhaps, there are others,
but they choose not to get into this fray ?




P.S.....Look guys, I view this simply as an academic exercise....as, nothing will ever come of it. I have no axe to grind. Currently, I have 12 cards from this 1910 Coupon issue.
Furthermore, I certainly don't ever expect to complete this set of 68 cards


TED Z

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

...

Currently, I have 12 cards from this 1910 Coupon issue.
Furthermore, I certainly don't ever expect to complete this set of 68 cards


TED Z

Quitter

[Abravefan11]

It's my opinion that all of the T215-1's were issued in 1912. A year after the conclusion of the T206 set and after the breakup of the ATC trust.

[tedzan]

There's "bigger fish to fry" than these "COUPON" cards. Besides, it would probably take 20 years for me to acquire the remaining 56 cards.
At my age, I don't think it's do-able

Received your email....and, those are weird looking CJ's.

I'll send you my weird looking T206.....it will give you a chuckle


Take care ole buddy,

T-Rex TED

[Runscott]

Ted, I want to see the bigger fish you plan on frying.


Also, Tim's comment above reminded me of a question that still remains unanswered. If anyone other than Ted considers me worthy of discussing such nuances, please chime in:

How did the printing plates survive the end of the T206 printing in 1911, the break-up of the ATC, and the lapses between Coupon card printing, all the way through 1916? (then they disappeared, presumably destroyed) Theories?

edited to add: this might seem too tangential, but I think it's relevant to the T206 vs T213 vs T215 discussion.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ted, I want to see the bigger fish you plan on frying.

How did the printing plates survive the end of the T206 printing in 1911, the break-up of the ATC, and the lapses between Coupon card printing, all the way through 1916? (then they disappeared, presumably destroyed) Theories?

edited to add: this might seem too tangential, but I think it's relevant to the T206 vs T213 vs T215 discussion.

Scott

The American Tobacco Co. did not have the printing plates, the printing plates were the property of the American Lithographic Company. American
Lithographic (like most major printing firms) produced multiple printing plates. I realized this was standard printer's practice in 1983. When a former
Bowman Gum employee walked into a BB card shop in Cherry Hill, NJ with the 7 original printing (32-image) plates which were used to print the 224
cards of the 1954 Bowman BB set. He also had duplicate plates of these 7 plates.


TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

The t206resource site has t215-1 listed in their scarcity rankings list, un-numbered, between 8 lenox-black and 9 bl 350. They list t213-1 between 10 blank-back and 11 Carolina Brights. I sort of like this idea of including them with t206 cards without changing the terminology. I know my collection of T213-1 would be worth alot more money if everyone just considered them a difficult t206 back.

Lipset has some interesting points on the T213-1 in his encyclopedia. The most interesting to me is where he states that it is doubtful that the set is complete at 68.

[atx840]

Scott, I am also wondering about the plates.

The pirate back T215s are puzzling as that brand was used on all sorts of card types..I have also found pirate backed cards depicting Chinese buildings with Chinese characters printed over the pirate backs. Where these printed in the US or in China?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Lipset has some interesting points on the T213-1 in his encyclopedia. The most interesting to me is where he states that it is doubtful that the set is complete at 68.

Lipset's encyclopedia was published in the mid-1980's; and, the 1910 COUPON set was not fully understood back then in the hobby. Since then it is quite well established
that there are 48 - Major Leaguers, and 20 - Southern Association subjects in this set.

When Bill Heitman published his famous book on "The Monster" in 1980, he did not mention the existense of the Red HINDU cards in the T206 set. That is just how things
were in the hobby back in the early 1980's.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by atx840

Scott, I am also wondering about the plates.

The pirate back T215s are puzzling as that brand was used on all sorts of card types..I have also found pirate backed cards depicting Chinese buildings with Chinese characters printed over the pirate backs. Where these printed in the US or in China?

Chris - There is a lot of information in the Legendary write up on the near complete set that sold. LINK Regarding the printing plates or stones I don't know anything about them.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

Scott, I am also wondering about the plates.

The pirate back T215s are puzzling as that brand was used on all sorts of card types..I have also found pirate backed cards depicting Chinese buildings with Chinese characters printed over the pirate backs. Where these printed in the US or in China?

Thanks Chris, for reiterating my request - I've tried to be friendly with the gods, but to no avail.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

The pirate back T215s are puzzling as that brand was used on all sorts of card types..I have also found pirate backed cards depicting Chinese buildings with Chinese characters printed over the pirate backs. Where these printed in the US or in China?

Chris

Here is a previous thread on the T215 "Pirate" Tobacco cards......

Titled: "Searching for a "Pirate" Cobb....show us these extremely rare "T215" cards ?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ate+set&page=5

Check it out


TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted Z,

I realize that it is established that there are 68 "known" examples of Coupon 1. Is there new evidence that there must only be 68 to the set? In Lemke's 2006 SCD he says of T213 ..."It is quite possible the checklists here are incomplete and additions will surface in the future." Thanks for your research on the T213 and T215 sets.

Robert

[tedzan]

I think Bob Lemke was referring strictly to the T213-2 and T213-3 sets.

TED Z

[atx840]

Thanks for the info.

I just received a call from Mile High that I won this card, forgot about it as I hadn't received a winning note or an invoice.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

Thanks for the info.

I just received a call from Mile High that I won this card, forgot about it as I hadn't received a winning note or an invoice.

Very nice for that grade.

[Abravefan11]

So for those that are interested in the original subject, not that I mind the tangents at all, I have a question regarding the opinion I gave before:

If the T215-1 were found to be a 1912 issue, and not a 1910-1912 issue, wouldn't this cast serious doubt on them being considered a T206 given the timeline of the T206 set and the breakup of the ATC trust?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Chris

Here is a previous thread on the T215 "Pirate" Tobacco cards......

Titled: "Searching for a "Pirate" Cobb....show us these extremely rare "T215" cards ?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ate+set&page=5

Check it out


TED Z

Cool thread, Ted. So why wasn't there a Pirate Cobb?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Cool thread, Ted. So why wasn't there a Pirate Cobb?

.

A Pirate Cobb.......^.......ready to do battle

Good question, I don't think my 57-post thread that Chris just bumped up solves this mystery. Cobb (bat off shoulder) was in the RED CROSS (T215-1) set.

TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted, excuse me for kind of skimming that thread (I was only searching for 'Cobb', as it makes no sense to me that any 1910 set would not include him), but what's the quick answer as to why these Pirate backs are not included in the debate along with Coupon and Red Cross Type 1's?

(I know you don't mind repeating yourself, or I would start searching again).

[tedzan]

You are "gunning" for Net54 "chaos"

We are having enough consternation here trying to include the 1910 COUPON cards into the "T206 family"......much less the RED CROSS cards.
And, now you are asking to add the "PIRATE" cards into this mix ! ?

I say, this set cannot be part of the T206 family if it doesn't have a Cobb

So Scott, what do you say to that ?


Perhaps, the troops who were in the South Pacific (where the Pirate cigarettes were shipped to) were no fans of Mr Cobb ? ?


TED Z

[Runscott]

Aarghhhh!

I know Ty Cobb hated the Pirates.