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#1
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)
Maybe there is not as much interest on this board in slabbed vintage cards as I thought, or maybe folks are just tired of possibly sparking another "attack fest" about who has what job, makes what money, drives what car, can lift what weight, can sleep with whomever, takes this or that drug, and similar drivel that was last interesting to me in about 10th grade. STILL, |
#2
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: jay berhens
paper restoration in the hands of professional is really hard to detect. I remember back in the mid 80s a lot of very low grade goudeys were bought so that the paper from those cards could be used to rebuild the corners of other Goudeys. I am sure this was probably also done with t206s. |
#3
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: runscott
David Rudd, SGC, PSA, anyone else... |
#4
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: David
I have no familiarity with PSA or SGC's authentication processes, so am not in a position to comment on what they do or don't do. |
#5
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: David
I don't wish go too deeply in identification of alterations, but most alterations (even sophisitacted alteration) can be identified by the collector who is motivated to learn how to identify. Simple and inexpensive methods like using a blacklight, checking opacitiy and holding the item at angle to a light source to check gloss, are highly effective. Somtimes inpainting can literally be felt by running one's fingertip across the surface. In some cases more advanced methods like using a microscope or infrared viewer are neccesary, but even these methods are used by highly motivated collectors (many fine art painting collectors own a infrared viewer). |
#6
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: David
For those interested, I teach two once a year authentication short-courses (one for photographs and one on prints (including baseball cards)) on the University of Washinton-Seattle campus. It is open to the general public, and assumes that one has no background experience in the area, other than having a gereral interest in the area (collector, appraiser, artist, other). There is no homework and you are welcome to bring as many (within reason a no Yankees) trading cards to class as you want. |
#7
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: runscott
...so it sounds like a professional grading service, if presented with a $10,000 restored card, has the technology available to catch it prior to slabbing. Good. Next question: what is their success rate? Brian claimed 11/60 for SGC...is that acceptable? What percentage of these cards were HOF'ers? ...economics would dictate that most high$$ altered cards are HOF'ers. ...gee, and I collect HOF'ers! |
#8
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dan Mathewson
of your next class, David. I'd like to go to that. I wish I knew earlier that you did this. |
#9
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: David
About two years ago I asked SCG how they identified alterations, and they wouldn't tell me. After that I assumed (perhaps, incorrectly) that most graders did not consider that type of stuff public information (perhaps they want to their techniques secret from each other). I have virtually nill experience with SGC and PSA other than that. |
#10
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: runscott
I guess it's within their rights to consider it proprietary info, but given the Matty Red Hindu fiasco, I think we are within our rights to let them know that if they can't come up with some explanations (and "c'mon guys, we're only human" doesn't cut it) they are going to lose some of us. |
#11
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Keith O'Leary
Yes David, I'd like to attend also, unfortunately I'm on the east coast. Any prerequisites? (I'm an ex offest printer who did half-tone work and used black light), LOL. Any handouts? An end of course synopsis? |
#12
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...and assessing of restoration. No doubt that whoever is doing the grading for the major slabbing companies knows their stuff when it comes to telling a 5 from a 6 but how many of them have the HANDS-ON EXPERTISE that someone like BRIAN DANIELS has in restoration techniques and what to look for since he IS a Master Restorer (not taking that away from him) and KNOWS HOW TO SLIDE THEM RIGHT BY THE BEST OF GRADING SERVICES. In Vegas, the guys they put in the rafters to watch all the players at the gaming tables are ex-cheats, well versed with practical hands-on expertise in the art of cheating the house in hundreds of ways..that's why they're hired. To watch for others that exhibit tendencies that THEY have used to cheat the house. SAME THING APPLIES: to grading services! If the grader can't stretch and whack a card and MAKE IT look NORMAL, how is he going to catch ALL of them that have had that done? Someone like Brian WOULD be able to catch 99.9 out of 100 because he CAN DO IT HIMSELF and knows ALL of the earmarks. The same goes for ANY type of alteration. A grader, who sits in solitary judgement on a card SHOULD be able to assign a grade AND rule out positively, any alteration whatsoever because there is every reason to believe that the card slabbed will remain housed for all time and in most cases won't be given a second thought having been "blessed" with the grading service's benediction. |
#13
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dan M
...we should believe Brian, then, when he tells us your Mantle and Jackson are restored and worthless, which you have also said before, yourself. Right? |
#14
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...ANYTHING is possible! It's even possible that the PSA 8 Wagner isn't what it appears to be but I don't know that for sure. I've NEVER examined it, nor was I asked to. Just as Brian has NEVER examined the Pro 52T MM or Pro E90-1 Jax, nor was he asked to. |
#15
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...for those two cards. I didn't print them, in 1909 and 1952, or more recently, I didn't restore them, in the event that they are, and I didn't have them slabbed. I BOUGHT THEM AS YOU SEE THEM and by all means should have the same right to offer them as bought regardless of the grading company that assessed them. Does everyone on the Board try to block the sale of and attempt assassinating the character of every OTHER seller of Pro graded cards offered on Ebay? Or am I the only priviledged one, for some reason, that everyone wished to cross swords with right from the outset? |
#16
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: runscott
to another thread? I don't care whose fault it is, I'm just sick and tired of seeing it pop up where it's not invited. |
#17
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...cards here, but as soon as I say something USEFUL, that makes PERFECT sense, as on graders qualified to recognize the most subtle of alterations, one of my MANY ardent detractors brings up the Pro cards to distract focus AWAY from a valid point they would rather not recognize in their denial. |
#18
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: leon
Ever look into PSA/DNA?....I have a great long, alcohol induced (but not conceived) story of it being a stamp. Period. NO testing whatsoever....nadda...and on new stuff an item is taken by a person, hired by said company, and is thereby PSA/DNA.....viola' that is what I hear anyway....as I don't have first hand knowledge.....but it did come from a pretty good source....would love to know more.....regards all |
#19
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: RBCraik
Hi, |
#20
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: B C Daniels
that went south ala me and dad! |
#21
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Brian C Daniels
do you mean the 51 BowmaN and 73 Reggie one's? |
#22
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Brian C Koos
I know!!! I know!!!!!! |
#23
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Brian C Koos
You got those from me! $20.00*** each! and these guys think I am a scammer.......ROFALMAO |
#24
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: runscott
Everything has to be private. I'm not the only one who is interested in this, so air it out... |
#25
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: RBCraik
BCD I did see you on this thread how could I MISS it!? |
#26
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)
Your answer seems incomplete. You stated you "worked on" only a handful of cards that were then submitted to SGC. Earlier you said SGC caught only 11 of 60. 60 is far more than a handful. If most of these were previously acquired and not "worked on" by yourself, why alter any-- wasn't your sample size was more than large enough to see how good SGC was? Why submit 60, and did you pay the fees for these? What became of the 49 that SGC missed? you say you did not sell them- did you crack them open? Do you still have a copy of the submission form? |
#27
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Dan Mathewson
I've already gotten a $1,007 settlement check from the USPS for slight damage they did to my 1913 Fan For a Fan, when they opened it during shipping thru customs and did some sight damage to it. |
#28
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Brian C Daniels
cards! There are a handful and what do you mean what happened to the other 49? 49 certified SGC cards that were in no way tampered are either in my collection or long gone~sold,traded whatever. And di I pay for the service??? of course! I sent them in to be graded so I have to pay for the service just like you would.....my submittal is no different than anyone else's. And if your next question is what exactly are those cards,I would not answer thaT. There in my collection and/or laying around under piles of hot wheels cars and etchings ect and other collectible stuff I deal in so don/t worry......they are not in your chest of draws or safe waiting to be inspected and rejected by the buyer in 2012*. |
#29
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: LargeCharles
Did you submit(60) altered cards? In the post that I am responding to you wrote "There are a handful and what do you mean what happened to the other 49? 49 certified SGC cards that were in no way tampered are either in my collection or long gone~sold,traded whatever."How did the other (49) become"in no way tampered"? Now, you have stated before that you never sold any restored cards(at least that's what I believe I've read previously)but, in your words above you state "long gone~SOLD". Does that mean that you have sold altered cards? I'm not trying to stir up anything, only trying to understand. Maybe I missed something.If you did sell altered cards, were they still slabbed? And did you make the buyer aware of the alteration(s)? |
#30
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)
I am fairly certain BCD once said that SGC caught only 11 of 60 altered cards that he had submitted- in fact, I thought that sparked a thread as to how accurate were the grading companies and how much should we trust them. I want to know what happened to the 49 that SGC missed, and now BCD seems to say they were untampered and were sold, traded etc in their certified holders. Which is it--were they altered or not??? |
#31
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Slabbed and altered vintage cards
Posted By: Brian C Daniels
Yes! I have the other 49 in my collection! I though I was responding to something else about a letter I received concerning some other group of cards and got mixed up with which group I was talking about. I SENT IN 60 CARDS ,11 were rejected by JOE MERKLE HIMSELF AND ONLY JOE MERKLE.......IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHOEVER ELSE IS THEIR NOW HE WAS THE SOLE GRADER AT WEEK SIX OF SGC'S INCEPTION AND THE ONLY ONE WHO VIEWED THE CARDS......THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD ME WHEN I CALLED HIM TO DISCUSS WHY THE 11 CARDS WERE REJECTED.I WANTED TO DO AS SCOTT HAS DONE,FIND OUT HOW THEY GRADE AND WHAT THEY USE TO DETECT THINGS! The company is completely different now after their shake up and ousting of JM... that was like four and a half years ago..the grading industry is completely different.... |
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