Fraud in the hobby

[Snapolit1]

A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

[rhettyeakley]

Just because you hate fraud in a hobby that you love doesn’t mean you can’t still find some joy and excitement. It usually just requires a slight shift in focus.

I stick around because I love the hobby and it was my passion long before i realized how pervasive the fraud in the hobby really is. All that said, fraud has been happening longer than I have been collecting.

[drcy]

I don't collect anymore, but do follow the items and hobby. So I observe the hobby issues from afar. Mostly, I sold off all my stuff, and never really gotten around to collecting again. Maybe someday.

I never submitted a card to a grader, and owned a total of perhaps five graded cards in my entire life. I never had an interest in high-grade items anyway. Though I also dealt with autographs and game-used that came with LOAs and their own set of issues.

[RL]

whenever there is a chance to make "easy money" fraud rears its ugly head.

[packs]

I think it's natural for you to want something you enjoy to be enjoyable and to get upset when outsiders are making it impossible to enjoy whatever it is. It would make me even more upset if someone told me I should just stop enjoying something I like. I don't agree with that philosophy.

It's kind of like when someone says "if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?" I always think the same thing when I hear that. Why can't it be nice here instead?

[Jewish-collector]

Other hobbies like photography, gardening, playing sports, etc,... are more about techniques and skill rather than money. There are some expenses to them of course, but not to the degree of sports cards and memorabilia. Our hobby we all love has fraud, of course. If you're a low end collector like myself, you have to find other aspects of this hobby that give you happiness and enjoyment.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by RL

whenever there is a chance to make "easy money" fraud rears its ugly head.

You said it for me. My exact thoughts. Reminds me of the late eighties and early nineties with all the easy money. Many of these guys are more sophisticated in their schemes. You have to have your guard up at all times.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

I think, for some people that the drama of exposing fraud and subsequent finger pointing have become part of their hobby. You can get attention online (if your not blocked or ignored) and praise for "being the one to expose", even if its only the same 5-6 people who cheer you on every time. There's probably even a little feel good from virtue signaling to others because they are part of the problem for persisting on with collecting. It might say more about ones personal life to be this way if it does become their main connection to the hobby. Just my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

I think, for some people that the drama of exposing fraud and subsequent finger pointing have become part of their hobby. You can get attention online (if your not blocked or ignored) and praise for "being the one to expose", even if its only the same 5-6 people who cheer you on every time. There's probably even a little feel good from virtue signaling to others because they are part of the problem for persisting on with collecting. It might say more about ones personal life to be this way if it does become their main connection to the hobby. Just my opinion.

Speaking for myself and more importantly the guys I know on Blowout, to the extent you may be talking about us, that's an absolute crock of psychobabble. Nobody craves any drama or attention. It's done from a sincere desire to contribute as best we can to informing people and maybe, just maybe, helping in some small way to keep a lid on it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As to my friend Steve's original question, the answer is pretty simple. If you love something, you don't let fraudsters drive you away from it, you adapt. Do people abandon their families when they become a source of angst? Mostly not.

[Casey2296]

Dishonesty in any industry is always damaging, from Joe six-pack all the way up to the Elite collector, but is really damaging to the people in the hobby who conduct themselves with integrity and honesty. They get painted with the broad brush of Fraud along with the scumbags. The collector trust is broken on a large scale and turns into a guilty until proven innocent dynamic. I'd love to see how fast this industry sobers up if you sent a couple of folks to jail for even a couple of years, or if some company had to pay a large settlement in a class action lawsuit. Ruin the lives of a few shady characters in the hobby and they'll run to the darkness like the cockroaches they are. Will it happen? probably not, but count me in for bringing the popcorn if it does, so honest folk can enjoy watching them squirm while they role over on each other.

Personally, I applaud the efforts of Peter & the guys over at Blowout. Doing the Lord's work IMO.

[rjackson44]

Hi steve fraud will never end ,,art ,stocks ,cards ,sneakers,its been going in for 100s of years ,,never will it end ,,

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'd love to see how fast this industry sobers up if you sent a couple of folks to jail for even a couple of years. Ruin the lives of a few shady characters in the hobby and they'll run to the darkness like the cockroaches they are.

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

[Brian Van Horn]

"Fraud in the Hobby"

Redundant many the time.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

The only way to move an elephant is to keep pushing, keep throwing them into jail, throw their wives and kids into jail too on conspiracy charges, they wont stick but if you've ever spent a night in jail you tend to reflect on your life a bit. Make it so painful to be dishonest that they'll think twice next time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

Yeah, I'm not sure broadly speaking how much people who commit crimes are ever deterred by punishment to others. I think it may be inherent in the fraudster's character to think he is smarter and will get away with it.

Parenthetically, for me anyhow, talking to people with no apparent ethics (as I have in this hobby) can be downright disturbing. But it does give you insight into their character and conduct.

There is fraud in many of my hobbies - cards, vintage autos and vintage toys like Star Wars and GI Joe. Like someone said when big money gets involved it just happens. There is always someone just out to make a few bucks at the expense of others. I've always shrugged it off and made sure I am as educated as I can be when purchasing items, particularly big ticket items. It is just a part of life and you can constantly complain or work hard to make sure you know what you are doing by reading and staying connected to online communities like this one that constantly educate and make folks aware of shysters.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

Well said Mark.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by brob28

Well said Mark.

I get that.

Maybe my post wasn't particularly well worded. What I find odd is how many of the people who rail about fraud in the hobby aren't actually railing against the fraudsters, but railing against other collectors who in their minds are too happy and aren't sufficiently outraged. Saying basically "because of collectors like you guys buying the stuff you're buying fraud is flourishing. . . .you should be more pissed off like I am."

The most obvious example is anytime someone posts about buying from PWCC 3 people immediately post about how PWCC is all about fraud bidding and how basically if you purchase cards from that company you are somehow complacent in all sorts of horrors.

Maybe too fine a point, but that's what I was trying to understand.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

I'm just not that concerned with what other collectors do. Yes, I avoid companies that I don't think are ethical. But if someone else makes a different call I don't think it's my place to chastise them.

I vent at AHs all the time. I don't want to be in the business of venting at other collectors. The problem is the criminals, not their customers.

[topcat61]

There's been reported fraud in the hobby since 1971, but the key to thwarting it is to be educated to know when it's happening and report on it.

[RCMcKenzie]

Randy Newman, Linda, was 1968, but he is not a British group, so it can't be that one. Bob Geldof, Walking Back to Happiness is another I saw. I ran the word "pier" through a song list website and came up with hundreds of returns. I think My Morning Jacket has a song about a pier, but that's a newer band from the South.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

Yes.
Signing of Timothy Leary: the little man who sells you thrills along the pier.

Great and different song, brilliant flute solo.