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#1
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: MVSNYC
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2958708 |
#2
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: barrysloate
Well, taking steroids didn't do McGwire any good. We'll have to see how the Hall reacts when each of these cheaters becomes eligible. |
#3
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: jay behrens
Big difference between cheating and throwing games. I don't like cheating, but I can deal with cheating because it's done to win games. Throwing games is a whole other level of bad that is inexcusable. |
#4
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I don't think it will have any effect at all on the gamblers who were booted out, and it shouldn't. |
#5
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
I truly believe that Joe Jackson belongs in the Hall of Fame. |
#6
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Hal Chase was banned from baseball in 1921 by KM Landis...he had been informally banned since 1918, but Landis made it official. |
#7
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: jay behrens
Shawn, I take it you think wrestling is real too. I don't know about you, but I have a serious problem when the integrity of the outcome of a game is in question. Jackson was a great player but there are grave consequences for making grave mistakes. |
#8
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
Jay, |
#9
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
.375 (or thereabouts)(Jackson's average in the 1919 WS) |
#10
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Bob Pomilla
Doing a quick search, it seems Chase was never officially banned, but was blacklisted. |
#11
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Chris Mc
It's O.K. to let drug addicts, wife beaters and worse in the hall. It's like telling the kids, do whatever you want so long as your stats are good and you don't gamble/cheat. It's a shame that Rose and Jackson are not in. IMO |
#12
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Justin
Even Joe Jackson getting to the hall won't change his legacy. He will still be remembered primarily for his role in the fix. It will never be forgotten, and that is the price of his actions. Everyone dies, but their legacies live on. Joe's legacy was that he was a naive hick, with tremendous ability who conspired to throw the world series. |
#13
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
Justin, |
#14
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Justin
The problem with the argument that Ty Cobb was a bad guy and shouldn't be in the hall is flawed because, then you have to look at everybody in the hall and assess some rigid standard on who should be in and who should stay out based on how good of a person they are. |
#15
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
I'm not sure how you got started with Ty Cobb, but your tongue-in-cheek references to other HOF'ers only reinforces that Jackson should be in. |
#16
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Well there seems to be conflicting info about Chase's banishment, but I found more than one website that claims KM Landis officially banned him in 1921 for "Consorting with gamblers". |
#17
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Justin
The public didn't know that the series was thrown. Rumors were around for the whole 1920 season, but most people dismissed them as hearsay and poor sportsmanship. |
#18
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: jay behrens
As horrible a person as Landis was, if he had been commish instead of Selig, I guarantee you that this whole steroid scandal wouldn't have happened. Mac who have most likely been banned when the andro was found and that would have been the end of the story because anyone else caught with PEDs would be getting banned too. |
#19
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Steve f
I love Joe as much as anyone, but he doesn't deserve a plaque. |
#20
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
If Landis were still commissioner today then the superstar players would still be earning about $10,000 year. He banned players for life for holding out on their contracts! |
#21
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: jay behrens
Sounds good to me and hopefully he would have given Scott Boras good old fashion whooping too |
#22
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
Justin, |
#23
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Justin
But Landis also fought against Branch Rickey locking up minor league prospects in his intricate farm system. Landis released dozens of prospects who he deemed either illegally signed, or whose path was stalled in the Cardinals system. He allowed the players to become free agents, thus allowing them a better oppurtunity to make a living. |
#24
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Baseball would have survived without Landis, but I think it's safe to say his iron fist regarding the 1919 series cleaned the game up and made it "on the level" more than it had ever been. |
#25
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Justin
Really what is the point of enshrining someone who has been dead for so long(I think in general this is true, it's nice the George Davis got in, but what good does it really serve other than to drive up his T206 prices, people who know who he is already know). |
#26
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
It is my understanding that while Chase was never officially banned from baseball he was certainly blacklisted at the end of his career. |
#27
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
I think anyone not enshrined just because they've been dead a long time would mean no more Veterans Committee...amd some deserving men going shamefully unrecognized for their excellence on the field. |
#28
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Josh Adams
Interesting debate. |
#29
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: James Gallo
I think it would be very hard to compare what Jackson and Rose did to what Bonds, Big Mac and all the other steroid heads did. |
#30
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: jay behrens
I explained why juicing isn't comparable throwing a game. A player juices because he is willing to do anything to win. That doesn't change the integrity of the game. He wants to win. Throwing a game changes the integrity of the game. The player is trying to lose a game, that is why it is far worse than juicing. |
#31
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Before anyone seriously considers Jackson or Rose as Hall of Fame material, I ask them to educate themselves a bit. |
#32
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: dennis
joe jackson's legacy is that he is NOT in the baseball hall of fame. if he were (and he never will be) he would not have the fame and great popularity he has attained today.let's pretend he died in 1918 and was elected to the hall,he would be about as famous/popular as addie joss,who did not cheat and was a great pitcher! this love of joe has been created in the last 20 years. most fans who followed the game back then thought of him and his teamates as cheats/crooks, why ,because that is what they were. it is a popular cause to believe joe jackson belongs in the hall of fame. he does not. remember O J Simpson was also found not guilty in a court of law. |
#33
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: PAS
Have you read Bill James' savage critique of the Dowd Report? I think it's in his latest Abstract. Interesting stuff. I am not immersed enough in the details to really assess what he says, but at a superficial level it is pretty persuasive. |
#34
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Shoeless Joe in the Hall?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I would have to agree that using steroids is not as bad -- not nearly as bad -- as fixing games, especially WS games. |
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