This is the problem with grading...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it.

You could be wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You could be wrong.

So prove me wrong.

[calvindog]

Bet me $32 first.

[Exhibitman]

Friggin' lawyers...

[Ronnie73]

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

+1

[vintagetoppsguy]

Another significant bump. Someone sure is lucky...

[hammer]

ooooooooohhhh Rick where art thou ?!?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Clearly there is visible paper loss on the lower left corner of the '61 Mays. The grading of these cards (Shell, Havlicek, Bauer, Ryan and now the Mays plus the other examples referenced on the CU Board) has now gone beyond the lame excuses of "subjectivity of grading", "grader error" or even "gross incompetence". The entire chain of custody needs to be investigated because people are getting ripped off.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Clearly there is visible paper loss on the lower left corner of the '61 Mays. The grading of these cards (Shell, Havlicek, Bauer, Ryan and now the Mays plus the other examples referenced on the CU Board) has now gone beyond the lame excuses of "subjectivity of grading", "grader error" or even "gross incompetence". The entire chain of custody needs to be investigated because people are getting ripped off.

That thread on CU is a great read.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That thread on CU is a great read.

Can someone post a link to the CU thread. I can't find it even after Google searching (however, I've never visited the CU forum before, so I don't know if I'm just in the wrong place).

[jwgators]

It was deleted...

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

Can someone post a link to the CU thread. I can't find it even after Google searching (however, I've never visited the CU forum before, so I don't know if I'm just in the wrong place).

The link is on post #1. But it just went "poof". Must be guilty about something. Game on.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

another significant bump. Someone sure is lucky...

david- its so obvious to me that you have a hard on for this guy. If so, what's the deal? Where's your proof? By chance, you might not be just a tad jealous are you??

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

Not true, eBay doesn't know who consigned items to Rick. If Rick sees a red flag, all he has to do is go look at the bid history.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

So if you determine that a card is worth $1000 but a shill bidder puts in a bid at the last second on an $800 card for $999 -- and you win the card for $1000 with YOUR last second bid -- then you: a) did not overpay for the card and b) have not been "effect[ed]" by the shill bid? Without which would have resulted in you winning the card for $801?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So if you determine that a card is worth $1000 but a shill bidder puts in a bid at the last second on an $800 card for $999 -- and you win the card for $1000 with YOUR last second bid -- then you: a) did not overpay for the card and b) have not been "effect[ed]" by the shill bid? Without which would have resulted in you winning the card for $801?

I guess the question would be, was the $999 bid a shill bid or a legit bid. I would only bid what i'm completely comfortable paying. I also come up with my max bid by looking at what the same card has sold for in the past and I usually won't even pay that. I do agree there is a small window where a shill bid could affect me but with the number of other bidders, it would probably always be under a hundred dollars more likely less than fifty dollars. I never find myself saying, I paid too much for this card, after I won the auction. The other thing is, the shill bidder doesn't know what i'm willing to pay or even if i'm interested in bidding in the auction. I think the shill bidding would be a bigger problem if ebay had the 5 minute rule where the auction doesn't end until theres 5 minutes of no bids after it ends.

[HRBAKER]

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too. It's much easier to get to the place where the rationalization is, "I love collecting so much that I am willing to put up with all the sh!t this hobby throws at me." It's a big tent.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Just because I am willing to pay $1000 for a card doesn't mean I should have to because of a bid that was placed with no intention of winning or keeping the card (in the case of a safety bid). Sometimes I actually like to think I got a good deal and pay less than I am willing to.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too. It's much easier to get to the place where the rationalization is, "I love collecting so much that I am willing to put up with all the sh!t this hobby throws at me." It's a big tent.

That is very true Jeff. I tend to have multiple sources from where I work up my numbers. I can usually see where a shill bid has happened because the sales numbers will all be around average or a steady rise but then theres sometimes a number that doesn't make sence and I usually leave that one out. Kinda like how some teachers would average your test scores in school, take out the highest and lowest grade and average the rest.

It still comes down to what your comfortable paying for a card. In an open floor type of auction, you could be shilled until you have hit what your willing to pay and then you say your out. With ebay, theres just more mystery to it.

[CMIZ5290]

David- still waiting for the proof........Did the dog eat it?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I guess the question would be, was the $999 bid a shill bid or a legit bid. I would only bid what i'm completely comfortable paying. I also come up with my max bid by looking at what the same card has sold for in the past and I usually won't even pay that. I do agree there is a small window where a shill bid could affect me but with the number of other bidders, it would probably always be under a hundred dollars more likely less than fifty dollars. I never find myself saying, I paid too much for this card, after I won the auction. The other thing is, the shill bidder doesn't know what i'm willing to pay or even if i'm interested in bidding in the auction. I think the shill bidding would be a bigger problem if ebay had the 5 minute rule where the auction doesn't end until theres 5 minutes of no bids after it ends.

I stated clearly that the $999 bid was made by a shill bidder. Let's agree that you're comfortable in paying $1000 but would have gotten the card at $801 if not for the shill bid. Are you impacted by the fraud?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I stated clearly that the $999 bid was made by a shill bidder. Let's agree that you're comfortable in paying $1000 but would have gotten the card at $801 if not for the shill bid. Are you impacted by the fraud?

I guess I would be impacted by fraud but its only fraud if it can be proven and thats where we are with this post. I do understand the points your making but at the same time, if I was to place my $1000 bid at the last second and the current bid was $800. I wouldn't be suprised if I won at the $1000 bid and wouldn't automatically think I was shilled. Its more likely that I would lose the auction in real life because I tend to get outbid more than I win but when I win, I win good