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#1
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Posted By: leon
This is what happens when you don't collect something but find it kind of neat....if anyone wants to show some caramel print freaks they are fun to see....I picked this up a day or two ago from the Just Collect guys...(heck, it might have been last night....darn addiction)..BTW, I love the big borders...for all you newbies here's a hint...look for big borders (especially) on high condition cards....stay away from little teeny borders, slab or not... ..best regards |
#2
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Posted By: Anonymous
I nearly bought this one a while back but forgot to put in my snipe on it, cool card. And its all about the big borders, i dont trust those small crisp ones. |
#3
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Posted By: JimB
Will post the ghost of M. Brown when I get to my home computer tonight. |
#4
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Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- that's still my all-time favorite caramel misprint card- it's just so weird and eerie looking! |
#5
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Posted By: Steve Dawson
Heck, that card looks normal when I look at it through my 3-D glasses - |
#6
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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson
Here is a copy of my Stone. I have owned two of these cards and both showed the same offset printing. I wonder why since all of my other 92 Nadja's are fine. |
#7
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Posted By: peter ullman
that's wierd! 2 almost identical stone printing errors! Wierd. |
#8
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Posted By: john/z28jd
I dont have a scan but the only Nadja card i have is Stone and it looks just like those 2 cards which is why i bought it in the first place |
#9
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Posted By: robert a
Bruce, |
#10
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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson
I bet you are right. I am just so used to seeing the uncut sheets from later years with multiple players, I didn't even think about the possiblity of a single player sheet. Leon, sorry to hijack the thread. |
#11
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Posted By: Damian Anderson
I recently won the same card and it has a very similiar print to it. Sorry I don't have a good scan. I am betting this is a tought card to find in good focus. Here is the auction, my grade on it just popped from PSA today, obviously a 1. |
#12
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Posted By: Glenn
picked this one up on the BST a few months ago |
#13
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Posted By: JimB
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#14
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Posted By: leon
Brown looks like he saw a ghost.......great card... |
#15
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Posted By: BcDaniels
I had that card for 15 years Leon before I sold it to Koos raw for $85. Thing cracks me up! Of all the Nadja cards there are several Stones out there like that! |
#16
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Posted By: Kevin
"Brown looks like he saw a ghost.......great card..." |
#17
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Posted By: barrysloate
Kevin- how was it doctored? |
#18
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Posted By: Bill K
Boy, it sure is easy to come on to the board semi-anonymously and cast "doctored" accusations at cards. How about actually giving us some insight, or are you actually expecting someone to step up and bet you money that you are right? |
#19
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Posted By: leon
Here's that fine line between anonymity and being known. I personally feel that "Kevin" (hi Kevin) should come forward with definitive information as to why he is making that accusation, or his full name, or preferably both. I don't think, in this instance, I would mandate it as a rule. However, personally I take people more seriously when I know who they are. I am not saying "Kevin" is lying or is necessarily wrong, but we don't know who he is so that leaves room for skepticism. best regards |
#20
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Posted By: Kevin
"Boy, it sure is easy to come on to the board semi-anonymously" |
#21
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Posted By: Dave
I think the majority of people here would want to hear your reasoning for saying the card is doctored. Because you don't like what Bill said you won't go into it??? |
#22
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Posted By: leon
Just so you know my post was not a personal attack. Put yourself in the place of who owns the card. If someone, that wasn't known to the board, said that your card was most likely doctored wouldn't you want to know why, and who was saying it? It seems like you probably have some really good hobby knowledge. I hope you will continue to share in the future too....To me, half the fun of the hobby is the camaraderie....take care.. |
#23
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Posted By: Josh Adams
Why does it matter what Kevin's last name is, if he has an opinion that the Brown card has been altered? So if Kevin posted his last name, along with any other identifying personal information, you would all take his word for it? But because he doesn't say his last name, the substance of his post is suspect? Doesn't make much sense to me. |
#24
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Posted By: robert a
Wouldn't matter to me if this card is altered. |
#25
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Posted By: Brian
I know Kevin -- even met him once. He is very short, but not bashful. |
#26
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Posted By: andy becker
didn't kevin saucier play for the tigers in the early 1980's? |
#27
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Posted By: leon
I would agree that it's more important to know why someone thinks something is altered than who they are. Knowing who someone is can give more credibility though.....but again, my main thrust would be the "why" part... |
#28
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Posted By: barrysloate
Kevin- I know the owner is very proud of his M. Brown card, and if you do think it is doctored, which is something that has never come up before, it would only be fair to back up your claim. Anyone can throw around that this or that card has been doctored. |
#29
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Posted By: andy becker
i believe that kevin saucier's 1981 topps card pictures him with the tigers. i really don't remember him other than the 81 topps. |
#30
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Posted By: Kevin
It may just be a futile point. Any opinion made with "this particular" card would probably still be met skepticism...as expected. As long as the owner is pleased with it, that's all that matters. |
#31
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Posted By: leon
I politely disagree. If you give the facts/thoughts behind your statements it will go a long way towards acceptance and thwart much of the skepticism. Just saying that you believe a card is altered WILL be met with skepticism as it should, imo. No different than if I make a statement with no corroborating facts, and I am fairly well know to the board. Also, in all fairness, you weren't really "outed" in the thread you posted unless I missed something. I never saw your last name (and no, I don't really care about that) nor did I see more details of your statements except you asking Jim C to email you for details. Please take my thoughts in the utmost respectful way as I am not trying to demean you. My guess is you know more than I do and have been doing this longer than me...not that that matters too much..Thanks again for participating. It's this sort of debate that makes this board most interesting.....kind regards |
#32
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Posted By: barrysloate
Kevin- I wouldn't worry about being met with skepticism. Worst that could happen is someone will disagree with you. I for one would like to hear what has been done to this card, and I will listen to what you have to say with an open mind (though I may have a different point of view). |
#33
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Posted By: Bill K
Kevin, |
#34
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Posted By: andy becker
hi kevin, |
#35
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Posted By: E, Daniel
Kevin posted a card which he explained had been put through the proverbial wringer, including heavy bleaching. Glue/residue had been removed, as well as general staining, creasing, etc., and the card had then been slabbed by PSA. |
#36
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Posted By: barrysloate
If in fact this is true, and the whole central portion including the name has been bleached, how does one explain that the belt is still visible? |
#37
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Posted By: E, Daniel
I was trying to work out the missing colors etc. and any other clues. |
#38
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Posted By: barrysloate
If all that is true, that is some pretty major work. I have never seen the card in person, only a scan of it. I would be interested to hear how Jim B. responds to this, since he at least has the ability to look at the card under a loupe and see if any of this makes sense. |
#39
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Posted By: JimB
I will grab it out of the safety deposit box and look closely. Will report back later. So far, all there is is an utterly unsubstantiated accusation. My first though is that if this were a scam someone is doing to make money, then (1) why have we not seen more of them? and (2) Why not do it on T206s where people pay crazy money for printing freaks? I got this card relatively cheaply in a Lew Lipset auction. |
#40
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Posted By: E, Daniel
Maybe no scam Jim, maybe just someone screwing around altering cards who then decided to dump it on the market.... |
#41
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Posted By: martin dalziel
Kevin, |
#42
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Posted By: JimB
Well I have inspected the card closely under 10X loupe and black light. I see no indications of alteration at all. Unless Kevin can provide any supporting evidence for his unsubstantiated claim, I personally, will disregard it. With all the experts on this board who love to chime in on altered cards, the fact that nobody else sees anything glaring seems to support my conviction that it is an unaltered printing error. |
#43
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Posted By: Kevin
Different year, different card, different country, but you get the picture. Plus, keep in mind, this was a rush job. |
#44
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Posted By: davidcycleback
Since the 1800s, there have been color progression proofs, which are used before final printing to test all the colors combinations for a card (red/blue, yellow/black, etc). Below are progression proofs for a 1975 Hostess card that came from the Topps Archives. The cards have no text. While rare, bizarre color combinations can happen due to intentional proofing or misprinting. |
#45
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Posted By: Brian
Interesting example Kevin... |
#46
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Posted By: Kevin
"I don't believe it would be possible to remove one color ink while leaving the other. Anything you do to remove one ink is going to remove the other inks at the same area." |
#47
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Posted By: davidcycleback
In physically altering a card (as opposed to digitally altering with a graphics program), if a baseball card from 1909 or 1950 has a background area overlapping in two colors of ink: |
#48
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Posted By: cmoking
David, I know Kevin well enough to tell you that the english soccer card he showed is NOT a digital reprint. |
#49
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Posted By: davidcycleback
The soccer card has had quite a few inks removed, including in the background. Erasing all the overlapping color inks from a point is different that intentionally removing only one of multiple overlapping inks at a point. It two paper targets are side by side, it's easy to shoot one and miss the other. If the targets are placed touching one directly in front of the other, like pages in a closed book, it's nearly impossible to shoot one and miss the other. Similarly, with overlapping inks at a point, one can easily remove all the inks or none of the inks, but one can't intentionally remove just one while leaving the others behind. That is what I am saying is not possible. As most card collectors know, printers often intentionally overlapped two color inks to make a third color. From observation or knowing what 'primary' colors were used by the printer, a collector can determine where on a Pre-War card inks physically overlap to create an intentionally different color. |
#50
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Posted By: Kevin
"one can't intentionally remove just one while leaving the others behind" |
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