Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens don’t have the integrity, sportsmanship or

[butchie_t]

Hank Aaron - STILL All-Time Home Run KING
Roger Maris - STILL Single Season Home Run Record Holder (asterisk or not).

Until someone breaks the above records, and are not all juiced up when they do, these are the current record holders and will remain until such time that someone does them clean.

Regardless of how MLB wants to handle it.

[GasHouseGang]

Anyone ever heard about this article that appeared in USA Today and the SF Chronicle? I have no idea about the validity about what Tom House claims.

Posted 5/3/2005 12:27 PM Updated 5/3/2005 3:58 PM

Former pitcher Tom House describes past steroid use
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Former major league pitcher Tom House used steroids during his career and said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Tuesday.
House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves' bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, a former pitching coach with the Texas Rangers and co-founder of the National Pitching Association near San Diego, is one of the first players to describe steroid use as far back as the 1960s.

He was drafted in 1967 by the Braves and pitched eight seasons for Atlanta, Boston and Seattle, finishing his career with a 29-23 record and 3.79 ERA.

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed," he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.

"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 miles per hour," House said. "I was a failed experiment."

House said he stopped using steroids after learning about the long-term harm they could cause.

"I'd like to say we were smart, but we didn't know what was going on," he said. "We were at the tail end of a generation that wasn't afraid to ingest anything. As research showed up, guys stopped."

[ClementeFanOh]

I'm with Butchie T and Frank all the way- Trent King

[Seven]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Hank Aaron - STILL All-Time Home Run KING
Roger Maris - STILL Single Season Home Run Record Holder (asterisk or not).

Until someone breaks the above records, and are not all juiced up when they do, these are the current record holders and will remain until such time that someone does them clean.

Regardless of how MLB wants to handle it.

Aaron Took amphetamines once so I guess the record reverts to Ruth? Oh wait Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone, so Mays is the record holder I guess? Oh wait Mays took liquid amphetamines during his days with the Mets, guess it's not his record either. We should just give it back to Roger Conner at this rate.

No one is a saint in this sport, almost all of the greats have done something wrong either on or off the field. Performance Enhancing Drugs have been apart of the game for a better portion of it's existence, and will continue to be apart of it, going forward.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Seven

Aaron Took amphetamines once so I guess the record reverts to Ruth? Oh wait Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone, so Mays is the record holder I guess? Oh wait Mays took liquid amphetamines during his days with the Mets, guess it's not his record either. We should just give it back to Roger Conner at this rate.

No one is a saint in this sport, almost all of the greats have done something wrong either on or off the field. Performance Enhancing Drugs have been apart of the game for a better portion of it's existence, and will continue to be apart of it, going forward.

Keep digging. One can find something if they truly wish to.

I stand by my previous post.

Cheers.

Butch Turner

[ClementeFanOh]

Bonds, Sosa, etc in the Hall or not? The debate that won't die, appearing in
multiple recent threads...

I'll start by saying everyone gets an opinion. The problem is that someone's
right to opinion, does not carry with it a right of legitimacy. Anyone who
tries to equate caffeine pills with back room HGH injections and physically
mutated players, is a person who is desperately trying to make his own
bias work. Sosa was a horrid outfielder and even worse teammate, whose
15 minutes of "fame" is directly tied to PEDs and cork. He's a joke, a
sideshow.

I get the feeling that many posters somehow feel that their fandom, as it
was tied to the fake home run race of 98 and fake HR totals after, has been
cheapened. Those fans don't like it- they want their time, their energy, their
passion to be worth something. Problem is you were wrong, it was a sham.
So, to mitigate this let down, people justify the cheating because it
somehow makes it easier to live with inside. I'm lucky that I was never a
fan of these dudes or their teams- it would stink for sure. But the truth is
they were sneaky, malicious, self serving at the expense of others- and
TOTALLY outside MLB's bylaws. The argument for PED guys is pretzel logic.

Trent King

[bnorth]

I think it is so sweet when people think their favorite player didn't cheat or only took caffeine(LOL) pills.

[ClementeFanOh]

Ben North- we have agreed more than once in the past, I am disappointed
at your take...

To put a bow on this, I'll reveal that I am an Ohio State football fan. There is
a LOT to be proud of as an OSU fan. There are also, however, realities that
I'm not proud of (Woody Hayes staying too long and going out ingloriously,
Jim Tressel lying to NCAA, Urban Meyer's transgressions, etc). The difference
is that I won't sugarcoat them...

So, you can lose the snarky remark about how it's "sweet" how others
think their favorites are somehow perfect. Your argument/logic is faulty. I
didn't say it, didn't even imply it, and don't believe it. Odds are you are a
McGwire/Bonds homer (yes, that was on purpose) and are butthurt that
their undeniable (important!) cheats have been exposed. Don't care to read
your exposition or deflections of the point. The steroid boys went WAY out
of bounds, got caught with their pants down, and now fanboys are doing
everything they can to normalize the behavior. Hard pass. Trent King

[seanofjapan]

To me it makes zero sense to be excluding Bonds and Clemens from the hall due to PED, it’s just a no brainer that they should be in regardless based on their accomplishments.

That said, I don’t think PED is irrelevant to Hall consideration in some cases. It’s really a question of how much weight is put on that factor, which I don’t think should be so high as to offset the accomplishments of a Barry Bonds. It seems it should really just be a major factor in those cases where you’ve got a borderline candidate, Where PED use could be a significant factor in excluding them. Like Jose Canseco, who without the PED use might have had a shot, I think it makes sense to take that as a factor that moves him solidly into the “no” column.

Bonds and Clemens are just so far beyond that level though that it doesn’t make sense to be barring them though.

It’s a tougher question for guys like Palmeiro and McGwire though, a fair bit lower on the achievement scale than Bonds/Clemens, but also high enough above a Canseco that they can’t be so easily dismissed.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think it is so sweet when people think their favorite player didn't cheat or only took caffeine(LOL) pills.

Reminds me of Shoeless Joe Jackson fans, they like him and won't admit its possible that he threw WS games.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Reminds me of Shoeless Joe Jackson fans, they like him and won't admit its possible that he threw WS games.

Shoeless Joe took the money, no pass from me.

Pete Rose gambled on his team to win, no pass from me.

Pick anyone from the Houston Astros a couple of years ago. They all should be banned. No pass from me.

:shrug:

B. T.

[egri]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think it is so sweet when people think their favorite player didn't cheat or only took caffeine(LOL) pills.

Or when they decide steroids are a no-no, but amphetamines, sheep testosterone and who knows what else are A-OK.

[ClementeFanOh]

To Egri- I suppose I am one of the "they" you mention, who have "randomly" decided
that amphetamines , sheep testosterone, and apparently animal sacrifice (since you
included "whatever else" as a possible enhancer) to get more hits, are somehow the
same as PROVEN PED abuse...

The problem with the "____" 50s superstar took stimulants" argument is that it is
based on anecdotal or 2nd hand (or worse) memory/speculation/rumor. Was it even
against MLB policy back then? (Serious question, I'm not privy to policy from 60+
years ago). The PED stuff, however, is NOT. It is within our memories and a matter of
formalized MLB conclusion. We all watched Bonds' head grow larger and Sammy Sosa's
bat give birth to cork- after his body shape changed completely. It's not rumor or 60
year old folk tale- it's provable and most certainly against MLB policy, which EVERY ONE
of those guys knew...

So, the extent to which permissive people like you will do all you can to justify the
PED crowd- "everyone was doing it so it's okay", or "I heard from my uncle's best
friend that ____ used to sniff jet fuel before games in 1960" is actually the amusing
thing here. You keep on justifying and speculating, have at it- the PED crowd actually
did what they have been accused of doing. Good luck with that argument! Trent King