Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"

[tedzan]

Eddie Cicotte's 1917 W - L = 28 - 12 (White Sox are World Champs)

Eddie Cicotte's 1919 W - L = 29 - 7 (White Sox are AL Champs)

Comiskey had promised Eddie Cicotte a $10,000 bonus if he could win 30 games in a season. In 1919, when Cicotte closed in on the 30-game goal,
Comiskey had him benched to keep him from reaching the mark. Comiskey's stated reason for having manager Kid Gleason bench Cicotte was that
with the Sox headed for the World Series he had to protect his star pitcher's arm.
What a laugh....Cicotte was a "knuckle-ball" pitcher (and a very effective one).

Both Cicotte and Gandil requested salary hikes.....Comiskey denied them both. The rest is history.


.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Northviewcats]

A few more of dishonest (?) Abe (accused but not convicted)

[nolemmings]

I think I've shown this trio before:

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I think I've shown this trio before:

Nice Black Green-Joyce Sox!

Brian

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Nice Black Green-Joyce Sox!

Brian

Very Nice

I have the matching Joe Jackson

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Eddie Cicotte's 1917 W - L = 28 - 12 (White Sox are World Champs)

Eddie Cicotte's 1919 W - L = 29 - 7 (White Sox are AL Champs)

Comiskey had promised Eddie Cicotte a $10,000 bonus if he could win 30 games in a season. In 1919, when Cicotte closed in on the 30-game goal,
Comiskey had him benched to keep him from reaching the mark. Comiskey's stated reason for having manager Kid Gleason bench Cicotte was that
with the Sox headed for the World Series he had to protect his star pitcher's arm.
What a laugh....Cicotte was a "knuckle-ball" pitcher (and a very effective one).

You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong.

Cicotte won his 29th game on September 19, he made 2 more starts after that. On September 24 he pitched against the Browns and gave up 5 Earned runs and 11 hits in 7 innings. His last start on September 28 against the Tigers, he only pitched 2 innings and gave up 1 run on 3 hits. He had a legitimate shot at 30 wins but pitched poorly.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong.

Cicotte won his 29th game on September 19, he made 2 more starts after that. On September 24 he pitched against the Browns and gave up 5 Earned runs and 11 hits in 7 innings. His last start on September 28 against the Tigers, he only pitched 2 innings and gave up 1 run on 3 hits. He had a legitimate shot at 30 wins but pitched poorly.

Curious. Eddie pitched the final game of the regular season, and was leading 2-1 after 2 innings. Why pitch him at all so close to the World Series if you're trying to save his arm? And one run in 2 innings is not exactly getting shelled. So I see where he can't complain about not being given a chance to meet his 30 win mark when he could have made it a few days prior against the substandard Browns, but I could also see where he might be miffed about that last game.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Curious. Eddie pitched the final game of the regular season, and was leading 2-1 after 2 innings. Why pitch him at all so close to the World Series if you're trying to save his arm? And one run in 2 innings is not exactly getting shelled. So I see where he can't complain about not being given a chance to meet his 30 win mark when he could have made it a few days prior against the substandard Browns, but I could also see where he might be miffed about that last game.

I dont disagree on the last game, maybe it was an actual tuneup to get some work.

Im just disputing the myth that he was benched. 8 Men Out has so many lies and myths, it should be a work of fiction. Its a shame that people continue to believe the lies when everything can be so easily checked today.

[tedzan]

James..... "You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong."

I have never seen the movie "Eight Men Out".....so, your assuming I did is incorrect.

I read what I posted regarding Comiskey / Cicotte many years ago; and, I don't recall the source.

Much information regarding this situation has been Sports writers theories, so we really don't know what the real facts are.
And, we'll most likely never know.


TED Z
.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by tedzan

James..... "You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong."

I have never seen the movie "Eight Men Out".....so, your assuming I did is incorrect.

I read what I posted regarding Comiskey / Cicotte many years ago; and, I don't recall the source.

Much information regarding this situation has been Sports writers theories, so we really don't know what the real facts are.
And, we'll most likely never know.


TED Z
.

You're correct, I worded it wrong. I should've said "this came from 8 Men Out" instead. But it doesn't change the fact that its wrong information. Cicotte was not benched.

[doug.goodman]

Various larger sized items...

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Very Nice

I have the matching Joe Jackson

That's upping the Black Green-Joyce Sox ante!

Brian

[tedzan]

From my archives and found this "rustic" W519-2 card of Manager Kid Gleason (issued in 1920). He managed the White Sox from 1919 - 1923.

His best season was 1920 with a W - L record of 96 - 58 (good enough for a 2nd place finish in the AL.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Various larger sized items...

Hi Doug

Really great team pictures....thanks for posting them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

I acquired this 1919 White Sox team poster some years ago.

It is framed, and on display in my Sportscard office surrounded by all my vintage BB and FB uncut sheets.

I have no idea where it originally came from. Perhaps someone on this forum can identify the source of it.


10 1/2" x 16" Poster





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I acquired this 1919 White Sox team poster some years ago.

It is framed, and on display in my Sportscard office surrounded by all my vintage BB and FB uncut sheets.

I have no idea where it originally came from. Perhaps someone on this forum can identify the source of it.


10 1/2" x 16" Poster





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Numbered to 1500 probably some kind of replica like these.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/33415554707...SABEgLMTPD_BwE

It's a 75th anniversary commemorative poster numbered to 1500.

[tedzan]

Thanks Pat

The poster currently on ebay is slightly different than the one I have. In size and color. Apparently, this poster was replicated by more than one printer.

I usually remember where (or from whom) I acquire my stuff from. It was quite a number of years ago that I purchased this poster. I think it was from
a Hobby Shop in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I do recall though, that I paid only $5 for it. It cost me $55 to frame it. It is a cool poster, so it's worth it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks Pat

The poster currently on ebay is slightly different than the one I have. In size and color. Apparently, this poster was replicated by more than one printer.

I usually remember where (or from whom) I acquire my stuff from. It was quite a number of years ago that I purchased this poster. I think it was from
a Hobby Shop in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I do recall though, that I paid only $5 for it. It cost me $55 to frame it. It is a cool poster, so it's worth it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

+1 agreed very cool looking poster and would look great framed

[ThomasL]

Lucky to have an original supplement from Feb 1919 (the full supplement which also features the 1919 Cubs on another page)

[ThomasL]

that 1919 team Underwood photo is missing the last player on the right sitting name and thus the person who underlined the 8 men out incorrectly has Byrd Lynn underlined instead of Lefty Williams

[ThomasL]

Win Noyes 1912 Home Run Kisses. Interesting coincidences...Noyes a solid PCL player (like most of the Black Sox) was invited to spring training in 1920 but didnt show up and ended up playing in the same league (Snake River League) as Chick Gandil...

[ThomasL]

Fact of the matter is Cicotte did have a 30 game bonus kicker on his contract for 1919...it was a carry over contract from the previous season 1918. The amount of the kicker is not presently known (10,000 seems way to high). Was he bench on purpose...was he mad...who knows...Cicotte in his own grand jury testimony did not mention this at all so that seems to point to it not being a motive of his....

HOWEVER this does sound like something he would have told his wife and kids to try to mitigate his own actions and thus lived on and is still believed by the Cicotte family (several have given newspaper interviews saying as much). Asinof writing Eight Men Out simply went with the prevailing thought of the time (1950s-60s) so I give him a pass. He did interview Hap Felsch, Red Faber, Hugo Friend, and Abe Attell which all had involvement in the scandal in some way which is more than anyone writing now can say. (attached Feb 1918 newspaper clipping citing Cicotte's 30 game bonus)

Likely Cicotte had bonus kickers several win levels (like 20 games, 25 games and 30 games or something like that)

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks Pat

The poster currently on ebay is slightly different than the one I have. In size and color. Apparently, this poster was replicated by more than one printer.

I usually remember where (or from whom) I acquire my stuff from. It was quite a number of years ago that I purchased this poster. I think it was from
a Hobby Shop in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I do recall though, that I paid only $5 for it. It cost me $55 to frame it. It is a cool poster, so it's worth it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Yes the ones on ebay are a copy of an original Chicago Tribune page that sold in a heritage auction.

Here's the original that sold in Heritage with the same stain as the copy's.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Fact of the matter is Cicotte did have a 30 game bonus kicker on his contract for 1919...it was a carry over contract from the previous season 1918. The amount of the kicker is not presently known (10,000 seems way to high). Was he bench on purpose...was he mad...who knows...Cicotte in his own grand jury testimony did not mention this at all so that seems to point to it not being a motive of his....

HOWEVER this does sound like something he would have told his wife and kids to try to mitigate his own actions and thus lived on and is still believed by the Cicotte family (several have given newspaper interviews saying as much). Asinof writing Eight Men Out simply went with the prevailing thought of the time (1950s-60s) so I give him a pass. He did interview Hap Felsch, Red Faber, Hugo Friend, and Abe Attell which all had involvement in the scandal in some way which is more than anyone writing now can say. (attached Feb 1918 newspaper clipping citing Cicotte's 30 game bonus)

Likely Cicotte had bonus kickers several win levels (like 20 games, 25 games and 30 games or something like that)

It Depends on what/who you believe, these are all newspaper clips from 1918-21

Baseball reference says he received a $2000 bonus in 1917 for winning 28 games but a newspaper clip states that Chick Gandil said he never received the bonus.
March 14 1921
Cicotte Los_Angeles_Evening_Express_Mon__Mar_14__1921_.jpg

January 23 1918
Cicotte The_Omaha_Evening_Bee_Wed__Jan_23__1918_.jpg

September 20 1919
Cicotte The_Cincinnati_Post_Sat__Sep_20__1919_.jpg

The real facts of the bonus should be known if his 1919 contract does come up for sale this year.
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ter-this-year/

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Doug

Really great team pictures....thanks for posting them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thank you sir, I like the big stuff.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I will start this show with "Chick" Gandil......





.


The "Black Sox" scandal of the 1919 World Series has been a controversial story for 102+ years. I recommend a well written book on this subject titled
"RED LEGS and BLACK SOX", by Susan Dellinger. Susan's source for the events in that BB season of 1919 are her Grandparents.....HOFer Edd Roush.

I recommended this book in Post #1. Very informative from a player in the Deadball era who was a part of this mystifying story.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Exhibitman]

[ValKehl]

Ted, this rarity might fit in with your Gandil back run:

[cardsmemro]

I’ll add my humble 1914 Polo Grounds Collins to the mix

[babraham]

My W514 White/Black Sox strip cards.
Currently just missing the Cicotte to complete the team set.

[edjs]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ted, this rarity might fit in with your Gandil back run:

Oh, Val. That has the “blue” caption. Wouldn’t work at all. It would, however, look good in my collection.

[ThomasL]

Brian - Nice to see that the Schalk Faber and Kerr graded out well!

[MikeGarcia]

...Talkin' baseball with Hap Felsch..... The "trolley series" of 1944 with St.Louis Browns vs.St. Louis Cardinals.............note the Pevely Ice Cream sign....... ( I think I read once that despite going six games , the series did not have one stolen base )?

..

..

[babraham]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Brian - Nice to see that the Schalk Faber and Kerr graded out well!

Yes they did! Thank you for your help!

[molenick]

Adding a larger-size card of one of the "not out" players.

[ThomasL]

Art "Hap" Felsch I believe claimed to be a cousin or something like that to Happy Felsch of Black Sox fame. Art was known for camping out and being the first to buy tickets to the World Series and he had a pretty long history of doing that

[benge610]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

...Talkin' baseball with Hap Felsch..... The "trolley series" of 1944 with St.Louis Browns vs.St. Louis Cardinals.............note the Pevely Ice Cream sign....... ( I think I read once that despite going six games , the series did not have one stolen base )?

..

..

Thank you Mike!
So Cool.
Someone who sees baseball history from a different angle than most. I love your pairing of the two pieces; you touch on two of my projects, '44 WS game/series winning hit in game 6 and the catcher that Harrington called games on ('33 Millers).
My wife is just shaking her head; as I, with Kid-in-a-Candy-Store enthusiasm, tell her about your cool post.
And yes, Baseball Reference shows both sides with "0" SB's.

Thank you Mike.
Made My Day.

Ben

"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."

[molenick]

Here's another Comiskey.

[mrvster]

with multi struck Tolstoi and Magenta overprint of Hernando Cortes from T-68 men of history

[cardsmemro]

Originally Posted by babraham

My W514 White/Black Sox strip cards.
Currently just missing the Cicotte to complete the team set.

That is an unbelievable collection!

[babraham]

Originally Posted by cardsmemro

That is an unbelievable collection!

Thank you!
Actually just completed it today...managed to pickup a raw W514 Cicotte on ebay...excited to finally finish that subset.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by babraham

Thank you!
Actually just completed it today...managed to pickup a raw W514 Cicotte on ebay...excited to finally finish that subset.

Congrats Brian and very nice looking Jackson you have there

[babraham]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Congrats Brian and very nice looking Jackson you have there

Thank you Jeff!

The raw Cicotte has to go thru that new ebay "authenticator" service, so I probably won't see it for a couple weeks unfortunately.

The Jackson has some staining on the back, but the front shows very well. Was able to pick that up in the BST section, which was great since I don't see them come up for sale too often.

[ThomasL]

While I have sold and cosigned most of my cards, I still have (and just picked up a 1912 Zeenut) my Joe Gedeon cards

[t206kid]

How about the ball used in Game 5, one of the thrown games!

[babraham]

Originally Posted by t206kid

How about the ball used in Game 5, one of the thrown games!

Nice! We just emailed about that ball a couple weeks ago.
Cool to see a pic of it!

[Epps]

Have a good amount of the Black Sox as this is what I primarily collect, but thrilled to pick up this one last night. Been chasing this card for 8+ years. Now only if I can locate that McMullin with tab.

Zeenut Risberg.jpg

[ThomasL]

Congrats Epps on the pick up its a great card! (one of my cosigned cards...probably should have worked out a deal here!)

I decided to go after the 1916 and won that one

[Epps]

Add another one I haven’t showed the board to keep the thread alive 272B0EA8-9345-4444-AA4C-C27E23B0E8F9.jpg

0BA0AFE4-EE6B-47D1-88E2-16E3867D207C.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Eddie Cicotte's 1917 W - L = 28 - 12 (White Sox are World Champs)

Eddie Cicotte's 1919 W - L = 29 - 7 (White Sox are AL Champs)

Comiskey had promised Eddie Cicotte a $10,000 bonus if he could win 30 games in a season. In 1919, when Cicotte closed in on the 30-game goal,
Comiskey had him benched to keep him from reaching the mark. Comiskey's stated reason for having manager Kid Gleason bench Cicotte was that
with the Sox headed for the World Series he had to protect his star pitcher's arm.
What a laugh....Cicotte was a "knuckle-ball" pitcher (and a very effective one).

Both Cicotte and Gandil requested salary hikes.....Comiskey denied them both. The rest is history


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Jim65

You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong.

Cicotte won his 29th game on September 19, he made 2 more starts after that. On September 24 he pitched against the Browns and gave up 5 Earned runs and 11 hits in 7 innings. His last start on September 28 against the Tigers, he only pitched 2 innings and gave up 1 run on 3 hits. He had a legitimate shot at 30 wins but pitched poorly.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Curious. Eddie pitched the final game of the regular season, and was leading 2-1 after 2 innings. Why pitch him at all so close to the World Series if you're trying to save his arm? And one run in 2 innings is not exactly getting shelled. So I see where he can't complain about not being given a chance to meet his 30 win mark when he could have made it a few days prior against the substandard Browns, but I could also see where he might be miffed about that last game.

Originally Posted by Jim65

I dont disagree on the last game, maybe it was an actual tuneup to get some work.

Im just disputing the myth that he was benched. 8 Men Out has so many lies and myths, it should be a work of fiction. Its a shame that people continue to believe the lies when everything can be so easily checked today.

Originally Posted by tedzan

James..... "You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong."

I have never seen the movie "Eight Men Out".....so, your assuming I did is incorrect.

I read what I posted regarding Comiskey / Cicotte many years ago; and, I don't recall the source.

Much information regarding this situation has been Sports writers theories, so we really don't know what the real facts are.
And, we'll most likely never know.


TED Z
.

I don't know if it's fact or fiction that Comiskey promised Cicotte a $10,000 bonus if he won 30 games but it's not in the contract. The contract says he is to receive $952.50 a month so around $6500-$7000 for the season? Baseball Reference states his salary for 1919 was $9075.00 the losers share for the world series that year was $3254.36 I don't know if that is included in the Baseball Reference Salary.
It also says he was paid $5000 for 1917 & 1918 plus a $2000 bonus for 28 wins in 1917 but it doesn't say anything about a bonus for the 29 wins in 1919.



https://www.greyflannelauctions.com/...-LOT47570.aspx