1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in PWCC Auction

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

Yes the timing was poor.

I admittedly do not know what to think about it. Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

Brent makes it very clear in that video that there are quite a few cards that have been "conserved". He has a very matter of fact look on his face and with being so connected to the hobby and seeing thousands upon thousands of cards I think it is clear he is right. Whether one thinks it is the right opinion or belief appears to be up for debate.

I do find it odd that some who are totally okay with soaking which in my view is attempting to improve the cards appearance or restore it is okay but other methods are worthy of the death penalty.

In life many try and justify wrong doing by saying well others do it or it is not as bad as killing someone etc. but once that line is crossed it is crossed and now you are in new territory.

I can't get in the head of someone buying these cards so I will leave what is okay or acceptable up to them and as I said there may be many of these collectors that are perfectly fine with "conservation" and would rather look at a much nicer card. I have to assume that many of these same collectors have exposure to other high end collectible asset classes and trading cards appears to be the only area where it is taboo but yet still accepted.

Very complicated topic that is for sure.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Yes the timing was poor.
Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town around me back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.

I started in '86 at age 9. Collected just Topps wax for a year or so before biting hard into vintage (back then just called "old") cards. EX range was super nice for a '50s or '60s card, tobacco cards were virtually never seen unless you were at a huge show, and then they were not in great shape. It does seem odd to me even before the PWCC mess that seemingly so many prewar cards in ridiculously high grade seemed to come out of the woodwork, but at the time I thought well, we have the internet now. The market is able to allocate more efficiently. But where were all those cards back at shows circa 1990? I'm admittedly small town, never went to the National or anything. But the whole thing still seems kind of odd.

[MULLINS5]

CONSERVING is defined as: a careful preservation and protection of something

PRESERVATION is defined as: to keep safe from injury, harm, or destruction : protect.

RESTORING is defined as: to return (something) to an earlier or original condition by repairing it, cleaning it, etc.

FRAUD is basically defined as: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value

When you send your cards in to PSA/SGC/BGS you are CONSERVING your valuables by having them encased. Shellacking a baseball was intended to CONSERVE.

Brent and possibly Moser bought cards, cracked them out of their slabs, RESTORED them and then committed FRAUD by not disclosing the work they did.

[wondo]

Could be a buying opportunity.

[Fballguy]

Does anyone ever stop to ask how a 70 year old card could be in such pristine condition? Did it go straight into a non-existent holder as soon as it came out of the pack? Where was this card stored for the first 30 years of its life that protected it so well?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Does anyone ever stop to ask how a 70 year old card could be in such pristine condition? Did it go straight into a non-existent holder as soon as it came out of the pack? Where was this card stored for the first 30 years of its life that protected it so well?

As was pointed out by Rich there was a find of these in the mid 80s. Otherwise I agree with you on most super nice vintage cards.

I also had a nice stack of 66 Topps in NrMint condition. The original owner opened the packs and put them in a drawer. They sat untouched till I got them 20 years later. It does happen but it is rare.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Does anyone ever stop to ask how a 70 year old card could be in such pristine condition? Did it go straight into a non-existent holder as soon as it came out of the pack? Where was this card stored for the first 30 years of its life that protected it so well?

Read this article on PSA's website:

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-baseball-find

Steve

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Read this article on PSA's website:

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-baseball-find

Steve

No doubt...finds such as this...BSF, etc...provide cards to the market in possibly never been seen before condition. But this is not to say that the doctors were not hard at work even back then turning 5's-6's...or 8's-9's into 10's.

Probably even easier to do on cards such as this?