Convince me otherwise...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Orel Hershiser was a better pitcher than Jack Morris INCLUDING their postseason exploits.

[John1941]

YES. I agree.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Orel Hershiser was a better pitcher than Jack Morris INCLUDING their postseason exploits.

There are quite a number of pitchers I would take over Jack Morris, who aren't in the Hall. Hershiser being one of them.

[packs]

Why stop at Orel? I'd say Ron Guidry was better than Morris too.

Not only did Guidry win a Cy Young, which Morris never did, his 47.8 career WAR in 14 seasons is clearly better than Morris' 43.5 in 18 seasons.

[D. Bergin]

Throw Bret Saberhagen and David Cone in there to, I guess.

I understand why Morris is in there and a lot of other guys aren’t. I also understand why so many question it.

It’s part of the fun of baseball statistics and the mix of old school record keeping and new school analytics. Throw in a little myth making and reputational bias and one guy gets on the Hall and a bunch of others don’t.

It’s all good though. I can’t ever begrudge any player for being recognized by their fans and peers.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

Why stop at Orel? I'd say Ron Guidry was better than Morris too.

Not only did Guidry win a Cy Young, which Morris never did, his 47.8 career WAR in 14 seasons is clearly better than Morris' 43.5 in 18 seasons.

Guidry and Hershiser were obviously much better then Morris at their best. They both suffered from being relatively late bloomers and had arm problems in their 30's. Orel had a longer career, but was relatively mediocre in the second half of it (aside from a nice postseason run with Cleveland), while Guidry pretty much petered out after an excellent age 34 season.

Along with the counting stats, Morris had several ups and downs and career arcs that people tend to remember better for some reason. He was an important part of 3 different organizations that won World Series titles, that are not necessarily noted for their post season dominance.

He performed poorly in the postseason his last time around with the Blue Jays in '92, but he did eat a lot of innings and win 21 games for that team, to help get them there in the first place.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

At one point Morris was 7-1 with a much lower ERA then he finished with in the post season. That was capped by a 10 inning Game 7, 1-0 Shutout in the Metrodome, against the favored Braves in the 1991 World Series.

Most people throw out what happened to him the following year when he was pitching for the Blue Jays. It was also largely forgivable because the Blue Jays won it all anyways. That staff was led by another mostly forgotten pitcher with a higher career WAR, lower ERA, higher Win%, lower WHIP and higher ERA+ then Jack Morris... in Jimmy Key.

Key didn't even get 1% on the HOF ballot, the 1st year he was eligible.

[packs]

I don't know. My issue with the Morris mystique is that although he did pitch very well in 2 of the 3 World Series he played in (you can't discount a guy who wins 2 games in a World Series no matter who he is) I don't believe he was the best pitcher on any of the teams.

I'd say Dan Petry was the best pitcher on the 84 Tigers team and that both Tapani and Erickson were far better than Morris on the 91 Twins team. I find it hard to reconcile a guy's HOF status when he wasn't the best pitcher on the team.