Gehrig question....

[vthobby]

Could someone please enlighten me on these 2 swatches?

The Ruth is obviously from a Jersey but can one determine from the small sample size........the era of the jersey it came from or home or away?

The Gehrig to me looks like a sweater piece and not a Jersey piece. Any thoughts on that?

Just looking for some expert opinions on where each might have come from. Especially the Gehrig.

Thanks in advance.

Peace, Mike


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$_57baack.jpg

[Louieman]

Just my two cents but I think there's a ton of distrust with these kind of relic cards. The way they word things on the back...."this game-used jersey is guaranteed by Panini"...or "the materials are not from any specific game, event, or season"...I feel with that kind of language there's no guarantee what you're actually getting whatsoever. With all the history of scandals from all these companies regarding where they get their materials from...just a lot of uncertainty.

The only relics I'd come close to trusting were the ones around 1999-2001 where it explicitly said..."this jersey was used by _______ in an actual MLB game"...but even those I wouldn't be too certain.

[HRBAKER]

I agree with Louie, these could have literally come from anywhere.

[vthobby]

Louie and Jeff,

Thanks for avoiding my 2 questions.

Fact #1 : On the back of this card it says "The enclosed game-used material is guaranteed by Panini America Inc."

Fact #2 : It also says "licensed by the family of Babe Ruth"

Fact #3 : Also says "licensed by Rip Van Winkle Foundation and www.LouGehrig.com

Fact #4 : Also "Officially licensed by MLB Players Association"

Now I understand that they could be from a spring training game, a pick up game, barnstorming, or a real game but it is hard for me to believe that with only 3 of these cards made that a multi-million dollar worldwide company like Panini is going to dupe both estates, MLB, and the public for a simple insert in one of its 2015 products. That would do well for their bottom line!

I also wonder how both of you would react if you or someone from your family plunked down $3 and got this card in your hands? I'm sure with the offers hovering around the $1000 mark that you would voice your doubts and displeasures so freely.

Please, If someone who has knowledge of Yankee uniforms and early era Yankee sweaters or wool would kindly give me those opinions I nicely asked for, that would be cool. If your opinion is "hey, those look like my son's little league uniforms that my wife cut up last week and sold to Mr. Panini at the back door at 3am" and you have video proof of such a transgression, then I would respect that as well. Video proof is quite frankly pretty neat.

Thanks,

Peace, Mike

[glchen]

Mike, the licensing from your points #2 - 4 only give Panini the rights to use Ruth's and Gehrig's name and images on their cards. It's not relevant to whether those pieces came from game used material or not. The big card manufacturers often depend on middle men who say that these are authentic jerseys / bats, so unless they show an actual picture of the uniform/bat as some of them have done in the past, the relic could have come from anywhere. That Gehrig material does seem different. It could have come from a sweater, sock, or even jock strap for all we know.

[vthobby]

Jock Strap? Man that would be awful!

Although it reminds me of a very bawdy Joe DiMaggio in person experience/story that I will only share after many beers. Maybe at the AC National next summer. Very funny but risqué story from a Polish Community Center (Albany) DiMaggio signing back in the 1980s.

Mike

[Louieman]

Well I'm not trying to avoid your question, I'm simply giving you the information I know. And I really don't think I didn't do it nicely...if it came across that way to you then I apologize, it wasn't my intent. I have no agenda here, rather to just give you what I know about these relic cards in general, because I think it is important and relevant to your questions.

[vthobby]

No prob, it is your opinion but I disagree. My opinion is that there is some distrust but due to the ACTUAL sales numbers that these types of cards bring, I can assure you there is a large segment that has money and has no issues with a Guarantee from a multi million dollar corporation.

I appreciate your opinion but it really did not answer my questions. There will always be doubters in any field but there are also plenty of buyers. Thats what makes America great I think. I was just hoping someone could say "hey, I know my uniforms and that appears or looks like it "could" be a from a home jersey from the 1920s" or whatever. Anything really as I think these card are interesting whether folks agree or disagree with the process. I also feel a bit miffed when companies cut a relic up into 400 pieces but at the same time, it gives the common man or kid a shot at something that the big boys wore or picked up at one time or whatever. To get a card like that for a few dollars is a heck of a lot more of a nice surprise than the daily scratch tickets they sell every day in every store in America.

By the way, I did not pull this card from a pack but someone obviously did. I am just a curious person by nature and these cards fascinate me for some reason. I would also like to have pulled this card!

No offense taken, Thanks,

Peace, Mike

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Fact #1 : On the back of this card it says "The enclosed game-used material is guaranteed by Panini America Inc."

Not to pile on, just curious. On the back of the card does it state that these are game-used BABE RUTH and LOU GEHRIG materials? Otherwise it is a very loose description that could conceivably allow the company to line up random 'game-used' TomDickandHarry materials underneath the respective Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig names. I know this doesn't help you identify the materials included on the card, but it certainly is something that needs to be addressed, even if it causes pain and distress.

Brian

[Peter_Spaeth]

For what it may be worth.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...#ixzz26PY76I5x

[vthobby]

Interesting read from 2012. My thoughts are that if they made those mistakes back then and it appears they did, that they certainly would have learned from that and then in the future purchased from AHs with reputable provenance history. I am not naive but a few years have passed since this story broke and if the FBI is sniffing at your door then I would think that would be incentive enough to change your buying practices.

Thanks for the article. Mike

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Not to pile on, just curious. On the back of the card does it state that these are game-used BABE RUTH and LOU GEHRIG materials? Otherwise it is a very loose description that could conceivably allow the company to line up random 'game-used' TomDickandHarry materials underneath the respective Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig names. I know this doesn't help you identify the materials included on the card, but it certainly is something that needs to be addressed, even if it causes pain and distress.

Brian

Brian,
I posted a photo in my first post of the back. It looks like it does not say it specifically so I see your point. No pain from me. This card was listed on Ebay yesterday and taken off today. I took the photos from Ebay. I was just curious as the Gehrig looked very different than most game jerseys so that is where my original question was centered. It was pulled from a local shop 2 days ago and not by me unfortunately! Thanks. Mike

If I pulled a card like this I would sell it right away to the highest bidder. I don't care who endorses or promises it's from a game used Ruth or Gehrig jersey, there's no way of knowing for sure. Give me the cash.

[Sophiedog]

Nobody is going to cut up Genuine Ruth and Gehrig jerseys and put the pieces into these cards...Nobody

[vthobby]

[bwbc917]

Let's say the pieces are real and that Panini is honest. In Gehrig's day players had warm-up sweaters. Could the Gehrig be a swatch from a sweater that he wore in spring training or during the season? It's not really "game used", but certainly might have been worn in the dugout during a game or during warm-ups.

Baseball sometimes causes me to live in a dream world. As a kid growing up I did not notice if a guy was black, white or Hispanic. If he played for my team and could produce he was wonderful. I'm having one of those moments now, thinking that not all memorabilia dealers are crooks, maybe there are some reputable ones out there. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, that's known in some circles as "innocent until proven guilty."

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Interesting read from 2012. My thoughts are that if they made those mistakes back then and it appears they did, that they certainly would have learned from that and then in the future purchased from AHs with reputable provenance history. I am not naive but a few years have passed since this story broke and if the FBI is sniffing at your door then I would think that would be incentive enough to change your buying practices.

Thanks for the article. Mike

To answer the original question - Possibly. If there was enough technical data on the known genuine Ruth jerseys (And pants) It should be possible to narrow it down some. It's unlikely the identical winding of thread and weave of cloth was used for his entire career. Pinstripe width probably varied too.

The Gehrig bit as someone else said looks like maybe socks. If you searched auction house listings for the last several years there was probably a pair sold somewhere. Possibly a warmup sweater, which should be another easy item to find in past sales. Assuming of course they're actually game used by Gehrig. Add the possibility of a random set of Yankees socks and the possibilities expand a bit.


That's also right about when the card companies changed the wording on ALL "game used" cards.

Note the Panini wording says "The enclosed game used material is guaranteed by Panini America Inc."
Nowhere in that does it actually say the material was game used by either Gehrig or Ruth. Just that it's game used. So it could be bits of Ruth or Gehrig uniform parts, OR parts of random Yankee uniforms from the 20's-30's Or they could be parts of uniforms worn in the Panini Intramural softball league.

I don't have one handy, but Topps language specifically states they don't guarantee the inclosed object to be from any particular year or event. And they don't call them "Game used" but "relics" =So theirs could be from coaching jerseys, or even just a Jersey worn during the signing of the autographed cards or stickers.


As to not believing a multimillion dollar company would do something that they'd get into big trouble for......You seriously believe that?
Enron
BP/Halliburton
Upper Deck - reprinted their own cards. Faked their own cards. Got caught at least twice - practically no repercussions at all
Mastronet
Delorean - company CEO tried dealing drugs to keep the company afloat.

There probably isn't room for them all.


Steve B

[Exhibitman]

Shameful. What's next, auctioneers selling signed stuff with COAs that are not guaranteed?

What?

Oh. Never mind.

[vthobby]

Good points. My only thought was if they had the FBI on them the first time, I think they would be ultra cautious from that point on at least. I know it always does not make it so, just ask Frank Abagnale right!

Thanks.

Mike

[Iron Horse]

Honestly why would anyone in their right mind ruin a Ruth & Gehrig jersey for this junk?
I don't mean any disrespect to you. In general I just don't get the concept.

[Leon]

Why would they guarantee authenticity by their Letter of Authenticity when they don't have to? It's a crazy world....

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Shameful. What's next, auctioneers selling signed stuff with COAs that are not guaranteed?

What?

Oh. Never mind.