Heritage Rosen Mantle - Greatest Card Ever Auctioned?

[MattyC]

Just saw The Card. Astounding and exceeded expectations. Just gorgeous, and with provenance to boot.

Wonder where it will end-- wonder how it will affect the card in all grades, especially those examples with rare centering.

Provenance in an old baseball card-- let alone tracing it to the pack-- is incredibly rare in our hobby. Bravo to the owner-- what a beauty. Hope the winner lends it to a museum occasionally.

[philliesfan]

Who is Rosen Mantle?

[rjackson44]

mr mint alan rosen funny robert

[philliesfan]

Yea...haha..

[cgjackson222]

Wow, that's an attractive card:https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515
Its nice that they included the video of Rosen discussing the find.

I guess it sold raw for $50K in 1991. Adjusted for inflation, that is about $100K.

Heritage expects it to sell for $10M or more.

Not bad.

That's about double what that PSA 9 sold for a few in January 2021.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Just saw The Card. Astounding and exceeded expectations. Just gorgeous, and with provenance to boot.

Wonder where it will end-- wonder how it will affect the card in all grades, especially those examples with rare centering.

Provenance in an old baseball card-- let alone tracing it to the pack-- is incredibly rare in our hobby. Bravo to the owner-- what a beauty. Hope the winner lends it to a museum occasionally.

Never heard of any of these cards being traced back to a pack? Interesting to compare something like the Rosen 1952 Topps purchase to the black swamp find of e98. The main difference being the overall population of existing cards. If the black swamp find were t206s and not E 98 they would be absorbed and embraced in the hobby As some of the finest examples known to exist just like these 1952 topps.

[MattyC]

Mine is. Which is frankly why I love it so much, beyond even centering.

As to the Rosen card, I thought the find's owner had the case in his basement-- so while not to the exact pack, pretty close.

Just imagining the e98s as t206's is fun. I also sometimes wonder how cool it would be if Ruth had a CJ. Fun hobby day dreaming.

[ullmandds]

Yeah just imagine if there were a crackerjack Babe Ruth!!

[Hankphenom]

I'm guessing it will hammer at about half Heritage's 10M est.

[sycks22]

12.95m

[MantleMarisFordBerra]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm guessing it will hammer at about half Heritage's 10M est.

I'll definitely take the over.

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm guessing it will hammer at about half Heritage's 10M est.

It's already at 4 mil before buyers premium as of 11:38am on 7/25 with 33 days left

[marzoumanian]

Believe it or not, I know the man who is selling this card. I will respect his privacy and not mention his name. Back in November 2004 I visited his home in New Jersey and saw A LOT of his baseball memorabilia collection. To this day it remains THE most incredible personal collection I have ever seen in my life.
He told me himself that he was the guy at MSG who brought his son with him to that show and worked out the deal with Alan Rosen. As many of you know, it was written up in Rosen's book, True Mint.
An earlier post mentioned that the owner kept this incredible 1952 Mantle in his basement. That's true. When I walked in I first said hello to his wife and then headed right downstairs. His collection is behind a floor to ceiling bank vault. He told me to turn my head as he dialed the numbers to open the vault. I walked into a truly amazing array of collectibles. He truly loves The Mick. I couldn't believe the items he had in this room. I won't go into detail out of respect to this fine gentleman.
As for the card? Back then it was raw but protected in plastic, of course. Next to it was a "to whom it may concern" letter from Rosen stating that it was from the find. Rosen made it clear in this letter that in his opinion it was THE finest card from that 1986 discovery. I kid you not.
To this day (hard to believe it was 18 years ago) I considered myself truly blessed to have seen this card up close, not to mentioned many other items once owned by The Mick. Like, WOW.
I wish this gentleman nothing but success in this auction.

[irv]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

Believe it or not, I know the man who is selling this card. I will respect his privacy and not mention his name. Back in November 2004 I visited his home in New Jersey and saw A LOT of his baseball memorabilia collection. To this day it remains THE most incredible personal collection I have ever seen in my life.
He told me himself that he was the guy at MSG who brought his son with him to that show and worked out the deal with Alan Rosen. As many of you know, it was written up in Rosen's book, True Mint.
An earlier post mentioned that the owner kept this incredible 1952 Mantle in his basement. That's true. When I walked in I first said hello to his wife and then headed right downstairs. His collection is behind a floor to ceiling bank vault. He told me to turn my head as he dialed the numbers to open the vault. I walked into a truly amazing array of collectibles. He truly loves The Mick. I couldn't believe the items he had in this room. I won't go into detail out of respect to this fine gentleman.
As for the card? Back then it was raw but protected in plastic, of course. Next to it was a "to whom it may concern" letter from Rosen stating that it was from the find. Rosen made it clear in this letter that in his opinion it was THE finest card from that 1986 discovery. I kid you not.
To this day (hard to believe it was 18 years ago) I considered myself truly blessed to have seen this card up close, not to mentioned many other items once owned by The Mick. Like, WOW.
I wish this gentleman nothing but success in this auction.

Great story.
Thanks for sharing.

[HobokenJon]

The card's owner, Anthony Giordano, gave some quotes to the AP.

https://apnews.com/article/mlb-sport...d47c39120f8e74

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

Believe it or not, I know the man who is selling this card. I will respect his privacy and not mention his name. Back in November 2004 I visited his home in New Jersey and saw A LOT of his baseball memorabilia collection. To this day it remains THE most incredible personal collection I have ever seen in my life.
He told me himself that he was the guy at MSG who brought his son with him to that show and worked out the deal with Alan Rosen. As many of you know, it was written up in Rosen's book, True Mint.
An earlier post mentioned that the owner kept this incredible 1952 Mantle in his basement. That's true. When I walked in I first said hello to his wife and then headed right downstairs. His collection is behind a floor to ceiling bank vault. He told me to turn my head as he dialed the numbers to open the vault. I walked into a truly amazing array of collectibles. He truly loves The Mick. I couldn't believe the items he had in this room. I won't go into detail out of respect to this fine gentleman.
As for the card? Back then it was raw but protected in plastic, of course. Next to it was a "to whom it may concern" letter from Rosen stating that it was from the find. Rosen made it clear in this letter that in his opinion it was THE finest card from that 1986 discovery. I kid you not.
To this day (hard to believe it was 18 years ago) I considered myself truly blessed to have seen this card up close, not to mentioned many other items once owned by The Mick. Like, WOW.
I wish this gentleman nothing but success in this auction.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Provenance in an old baseball card-- let alone tracing it to the pack-- is incredibly rare in our hobby. Bravo to the owner-- what a beauty. Hope the winner lends it to a museum occasionally.

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by tedzan

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.


TED Z

.

I'll give you a quarter Ted. Heck of a return on your investment.

[darwinbulldog]

Surely this belongs in the post-WWII section, but I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, so here I am. Winning bid will be $6,000,000. That's $7.2M with the premium, and just a bit under $8M once you factor in sales tax and the Heritage shipping charges (not in that order actually).

[bxb]

If it's the best why didn't SGC give it a 10.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bxb

If it's the best why didn't SGC give it a 10.

Top border is discolored. Back is a little off-center and possibly has a stain near the "Okla."

[Seven]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Mine is. Which is frankly why I love it so much, beyond even centering.

As to the Rosen card, I thought the find's owner had the case in his basement-- so while not to the exact pack, pretty close.

Just imagining the e98s as t206's is fun. I also sometimes wonder how cool it would be if Ruth had a CJ. Fun hobby day dreaming.

I think about stuff like this all the time. Helmar Brewing has done a few "what if" cards in certain styles. But Yes one has to think how certain players, would look, on certain issues, had they been made.

Originally Posted by tedzan

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted,

I don't think I will ever tire of seeing this picture or hearing the story. Best of luck at the National, my friend. Did you get my latest email?

- James

[MattyC]

Ted,

That is so awesome, to have the very wrapper it came from. Exceedingly rare aspect to any card that old. Also love how much passion you clearly have for it!

I do not have the wrapper from the pack mine came from; though I do have a lovely recorded interview of its one prior owner talking to my son and I about the day he pulled it, how the pack was bought with money from his paper route, the store where he bought the pack, the town— and even how he hit the town's first little league homer!

Wish I could have pulled it myself— indeed I have always have felt like I was born in the wrong decade!

Here is mine. Why pay an extra $10,000,000 just for CORNERS!

[ALR-bishop]

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Ted,

That is so awesome, to have the very wrapper it came from. Exceedingly rare aspect to any card that old. Also love how much passion you clearly have for it!

I do not have the wrapper from the pack mine came from; though I do have a lovely recorded interview of its one prior owner talking to my son and I about the day he pulled it, how the pack was bought with money from his paper route, the store where he bought the pack, the town— and even how he hit the town's first little league homer!

Wish I could have pulled it myself— indeed I have always have felt like I was born in the wrong decade!

Here is mine. Why pay an extra $10,000,000 just for CORNERS!

Matt

The 1952 TOPPS wrapper on display is not the original one which I pulled Mantle from.
However, here are the original 4 cards that were in the 5-cent wax-pack with Mantle.

I can recall that moment 70 years ago as if it just occurred yesterday.

Matt, I appreciate your kind words.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[mrreality68]

Agreed amazing card and we can all own it if Leon buys it on behalf of the forum and we all chip in for fractional shares

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Matt

The 1952 TOPPS wrapper on display is not the original one which I pulled Mantle from.
However, here are the original 4 cards that were in the 5-cent wax-pack with Mantle.

I can recall that moment 70 years ago as if it just occurred yesterday.

Matt, I appreciate your kind words.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

That 4.5 Mantle looks absolutely amazing

Congrats on a great card

[tuckr1]

Might be one of the coolest things I have ever read on this site, thanks for sharing Ted

Originally Posted by tedzan

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by tedzan

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.


.

And then for 70 years successfully kept your mother, girlfriend, wife from throwing it out.

Amazing stuff...seriously. What 95% of collectors day dream about.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by tedzan

True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

while my terrible copy pales in comparison to others, It means alot to me. I'm glad it has "Provenance" to have crossed your hands from your friend that pulled it from the pack. It's nice to know where they came from and you are a hobby treasure. Thanks Ted.

[quinnsryche]

$15.1 Mil

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

$15.1 Mil

Wholly Schniekies!!! Thats alot of dough

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is at 5.3 with a month to go. I'll guess 13. Age of the winner, 37.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Ted,

Thanks for sharing. I can't believe I haven't heard your story. May be one of the best hobby stories there is.

Brent

[Lucas00]

Maybe the discoloration/staining is why the card is a 9.5 and not a 10? Just a thought.
I also agree it's a trivial issue and deserves the 9.5.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Maybe the discoloration/staining is why the card is a 9.5 and not a 10? Just a thought.
I also agree it's a trivial issue and deserves the 9.5.

I would imagine the bias in grading this one was huge, even for SGC. You've got to imagine that a 9.5 from them on any 1950's card is a pretty rare occurrence. Then they have this specimen, with provenance from Mr. Mint saying he thinks it's the best '52 Mantle in the world. So what do you do with that? I'm thinking the conversation between Peter and the boys was something like "Well, we sure can't give it a 10 because that would lead to criticism that we just totally bowed to the letter, etc. etc." If I'm remembering correctly, when PSA handed out their three 10's on the same card, there was no fanfare and press that followed because of an immediate sale.

I'm guessing they first all agreed that it was mint and then said, "eh, give it the 9.5 to make is special but not a 10."

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Maybe the discoloration/staining is why the card is a 9.5 and not a 10? Just a thought.
I also agree it's a trivial issue and deserves the 9.5.

Since SGC has 2 different 10s they could have give it the lower of the 2.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Since SGC has 2 different 10s they could have give it the lower of the 2.

True. SGC actually has 2 higher grades than the one they gave it.

[Johnny630]

The card itself is beautiful, and it's the letter that takes it to the next level!!

Smart Man for not only preserving the card but for preserving the letter by Rosen! That letter will probably put 2 to 5 more million in his pocket.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Maybe the discoloration/staining is why the card is a 9.5 and not a 10? Just a thought.
I also agree it's a trivial issue and deserves the 9.5.

That's what I was thinking. This elegant, perfect card is pristine, aside from the tinzie bit of finger oils when it was handled. With a scanner, that would intensify the very, very, very X 10 to the 3rd power stain. In the hand, it would hardly be noticeable.

Some of you are getting extremely snarky and seem to be bent on trying to do some idiotic Native rain dance to diminish the luster of this dream card. Again, Mr. Mint said it was the best. Even if there's really about four of these that would grade pristine, that's not very many, and would classify as RARE.

The card is going to fetch a king's ransom---whether you like it or agree with it or not.

--- Brian Powell

PS---if I was financially that well-fixed, I'd go after it in a heartbeat.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Some of you are getting extremely snarky and seem to be bent on trying to do some idiotic Native rain dance to diminish the luster of this dream card. Again, Mr. Mint said it was the best.

Yes, we should ignore the blatant evidence of our eyes because Mr. Mint gave a quote on a card he was selling for big money. To see the damage that does not seem, by SGC's scale, to be allowable on that grade is to be bent on performing an idiotic rain dance to diminish the luster of this card.

I get there are entrenched narratives, but being able to see is not idiotic. Denying the blatant evidence of one's eyes is idiotic.

We all know my hypothetical Coogan with the same staining would not get a 9.5.

That it will sell for a record price and is a great card does not change this.

[Exhibitman]

That's an amazing story, Ted, but wasn't it kind of awkward buying baseball cards in 1952 at age 73? Did you lie and say it was for your grandson?

I kid you, my friend. I realize you were only 58 at the time.

Does the excitement and (potential) record price of this card have an effect on lesser examples? If the 9.5 goes for $10 million, is a 1 then worth 1% of that? Discuss.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, we should ignore the blatant evidence of our eyes because Mr. Mint gave a quote on a card he was selling for big money. To see the damage that does not seem, by SGC's scale, to be allowable on that grade is to be bent on performing an idiotic rain dance to diminish the luster of this card.

I get there are entrenched narratives, but being able to see is not idiotic. Denying the blatant evidence of one's eyes is idiotic.

We all know my hypothetical Coogan with the same staining would not get a 9.5.

That it will sell for a record price and is a great card does not change this.

Greg, I do not deny there is slight staining, presumably from fingertip oils. Said oils are assuredly there, but your wording makes it sound as if it has ruined a once-pristine card. This blatant evidence assessment was what I believe is idiotic.

I just believe if this card is taken to the National, and is scrutinized by all the peons like me, they will see that it is NOT that noticeable. Good scanners throw a proverbial spotlight on the subject, and as I maintain, intensify anything that would de-grade a card from a 10. If it turns out the card at close range is as bad as the scan, then I am wrong.

I am certain when Alan Rosen wrote his letter of provenance and asserted this example was the best Mantle from his find, it was. Regardless, it seems some of us are being too quick to pronounce harsh judgement on this regal condition rarity. The National is coming up; hopefully, it will be there. If I could go, I would love to see it in person; that experience alone would be worth going to and paying to see.

--- Brian Powell

[G1911]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Greg, I do not deny there is slight staining, presumably from fingertip oils. Said oils are assuredly there, but your wording makes it sound as if it has ruined a once-pristine card. This blatant evidence assessment was what I believe is idiotic.

Where did somebody say the card is ruined? Where did somebody say this card is anything but great? Where was it implied the card is 'ruined'? Nobody said this. All that was said is that the card has damage that clearly precludes it from a 9.5 on their scale. I get that it is easier to call something other than what was actually said idiotic, but that is itself idiotic to do. Making things up to argue against is not rational.

Originally Posted by brian1961

I just believe if this card is taken to the National, and is scrutinized by all the peons like me, they will see that it is NOT that noticeable. Good scanners throw a proverbial spotlight on the subject, and as I maintain, intensify anything that would de-grade a card from a 10. If it turns out the card at close range is as bad as the scan, then I am wrong.

Heritage has a long history of doing the opposite, actually. Assuming that it will look better in hand is an assumption of faith and, frankly, irrelevant to grading. Let's just assume it anyways. It's still not a 9.5. Isn't the whole point of grading to grade the actual condition and not eye appeal? That's why a spider wrinkle nobody can see takes a 7 to a 3.

Originally Posted by brian1961

I am certain when Alan Rosen wrote his letter of provenance and asserted this example was the best Mantle from his find, it was.

We will assume his judgement is correct and that Rosen was an honest man. This is, as you surely know, utterly irrelevant even after this very generous assumption though. Rosen's opinion that it was the nicest does not make it a 9.5. The best example of a card does not make it a 10 or a 9.5 or a 9. A card does not become a 9.5 because the seller thinks it looks nicer than others; it is supposed to meet the criteria. Again, we all know me submitting a random Dale Coogan like this would not get a 9.5.

Originally Posted by brian1961

Regardless, it seems some of us are being too quick to pronounce harsh judgement on this regal condition rarity. The National is coming up; hopefully, it will be there. If I could go, I would love to see it in person; that experience alone would be worth going to and paying to see.

What does speed have to do with it? The card either does or does not have the damage. The damage either is or is not consistent with a 9.5. It takes a few seconds to observe this. I must wait until the auction is over and the hype train wrapped up before observing a fact, if it may be observed at all?





I gather many here are very emotionally invested in this card and the Mickey Mantle hype train in general. Relax, your investments aren't going to be hurt because people can see the blatant staining all over the top of this example. Mantle's will keep going up, most will pretend this 9.5 is an actual 9.5 and it will set a record price, and then we can jump back on our sanctimonious high horses to rail at the corruption and errors that are unpopular and ignoring the corruption and errors that are popular while getting upset when they are observed, just like always.