Just how Rare are Vintage Cards (Like How much Rarer is a T212 vs T206)?

[that T206 Guy]

Just how Rare are Vintage Cards (Like How much Rarer is a T212 vs T206)?

It seems like for every 1 T212 there is like a Few Hundred T206's.

Is it safe to assume that your average common T212 is 200 Times Rarer than your average common T206?

Is there any info anywhere on just how Rare these sets are Compared to each other?

I am very curious.

[x2drich2000]

Using Cy Young (a top tier HOFer who is more likely to be graded than a common) as a sample, below are the PSA pop reports from several issues.

964 T206 portraits (all backs)
923 T206 glove showing (all backs)
870 T206 bare hand (all backs)
327 T205 (all backs)
102 T3
77 E93
62 E92 combined (52 Dockman, 2 Cocoa, 7 Candy (all colors), 1 E92 Nadja)
29 D304
24 E105 (a very high number for this set).

I'm sure if you did this for other players you would find a similar breakdown. So basically you are talking T206 are roughly 3x more common than T205, and around 12x more common than the easier caramel sets. This is for a specific player and if you wanted any card of any player, the T206 set being the largest would result in T206's being even more common as a type than these number indicate.

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Using Cy Young (a top tier HOFer who is more likely to be graded than a common) as a sample, below are the PSA pop reports from several issues.

964 T206 portraits (all backs)
923 T206 glove showing (all backs)
870 T206 bare hand (all backs)
327 T205 (all backs)
102 T3
77 E93
62 E92 combined (52 Dockman, 2 Cocoa, 7 Candy (all colors), 1 E92 Nadja)
29 D304
24 E105 (a very high number for this set).

I'm sure if you did this for other players you would find a similar breakdown. So basically you are talking T206 are roughly 3x more common than T205, and around 12x more common than the easier caramel sets. This is for a specific player and if you wanted any card of any player, the T206 set being the largest would result in T206's being even more common as a type than these number indicate.

Very well said!

[buymycards]

Here is a quick sampling from the PSA pop report

T206 247,000 graded

T213-1 118 graded

T215-1 40 graded

T205 40,000 graded

T215 Pirate 11 graded

1909 T212 409 graded

1910 T212 2370 graded

1911 T212 1333 graded

Those are PSA only. The numbers don't include Beckett or SGC.

[Rhotchkiss]

T215 Pirates are rare? Then this sucker is something you don't see every day. Love the T215 Pirates (all of which are "Authentic")!! Considering the OP's questions has pretty much been answered - T206s generally (ignoring backs) are more common than ever other T, E and D issue - lets see some rare cards!

[bbcard1]

There would seem to be an implication that rarer is better. This isn't really always true. The relative availability of the T206 makes it plausible for everyone to participated and creates an opportunity for communities to form around the card.

It's kind of like an old convertible I once owned. I liked it, but it was going to eat thousands of dollars to get it to a serviceable point. it was also a rare car. A friend to mine who is an auto enthusiast described it as "scarce but undesirable."

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T215 Pirates are rare? Then this sucker is something you don't see every day. Love the T215 Pirates (all of which are "Authentic")!! Considering the OP's questions has pretty much been answered - T206s generally (ignoring backs) are more common than ever other T, E and D issue - lets see some rare cards!

I can do exactly the opposite. Here is the most common card in the T206 set. I noticed the Red Cobb has the most PSA graded examples in the set. The Piedmont 350 back was the most graded Red Cobb.

Just got it so using any reason to post pics of it.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T215 Pirates are rare? Then this sucker is something you don't see every day. Love the T215 Pirates (all of which are "Authentic")!! Considering the OP's questions has pretty much been answered - T206s generally (ignoring backs) are more common than ever other T, E and D issue - lets see some rare cards!

Your Frank Chance is the only Chance card graded. No Chance cards graded at SGC.

I'm not sure what you mean by "all of which are Authentic".

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I'm not sure what you mean by "all of which are Authentic".

Normally it refers to them not being pack issued, but hand cut from a sheet instead like it was saved as a printer's scrap.

[Goudey77]

T206. It's the blue chip standard for pre war cards. Extremely popular and traded at high volume.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Normally it refers to them not being pack issued, but hand cut from a sheet instead like it was saved as a printer's scrap.

That is what I thought. But, of the 11 cards that have been graded by PSA, 10 are Authentic and 1 is a 6. Of the 99 cards graded by SGC, only 2 are graded Authentic.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by buymycards

That is what I thought. But, of the 11 cards that have been graded by PSA, 10 are Authentic and 1 is a 6. Of the 99 cards graded by SGC, only 2 are graded Authentic.

Rick, PSA is stupid. They are terrible at rare and old cards (hell, they are terrible at all cards). I have seen flips that say brown old mill and brown Lenox that are not brown, and PSA is famous for one of the biggest steals of all time on a mislabeled old mill that was a brown old mill. And this is not the only chance r215 pirate. There is one other known - there is a complete t215 pirate set out there (May be missing one card). I will admit - SGC’s may have number grades, so in this case they both may be wrong, but the ones in SGC flips may be the set, and that set may have actually been assembled with cards from packs; there is only one set and then a few single stragglers. Regardless, I will take SGC all day, every day on old and rare T, E, and D cards and PCs and anything rare.

T215s are all Authentic because they think the t215 pirates out there were cut from a single sheet and not put into packs (given to servicemen in the pacific). Here is a great write up by REA from a t215 pirate auction a while back.

Steve (BrassRat on the board) has a freak pirate - split front and back - of chief meyers; hands down one of the coolest cards around. Maybe he will post it.

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...dinary-rarity/

BTW - Ben, good looking Cobb. Congrats. I agree, post cards!!

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Using Cy Young (a top tier HOFer who is more likely to be graded than a common) as a sample, below are the PSA pop reports from several issues.

964 T206 portraits (all backs)
923 T206 glove showing (all backs)
870 T206 bare hand (all backs)
327 T205 (all backs)
102 T3
77 E93
62 E92 combined (52 Dockman, 2 Cocoa, 7 Candy (all colors), 1 E92 Nadja)
29 D304
24 E105 (a very high number for this set).

I'm sure if you did this for other players you would find a similar breakdown. So basically you are talking T206 are roughly 3x more common than T205, and around 12x more common than the easier caramel sets. This is for a specific player and if you wanted any card of any player, the T206 set being the largest would result in T206's being even more common as a type than these number indicate.

I am not saying graded.

Because like you said more popular and more valuable cards will be more likely to be graded.

If I type in T206 on ebay 8,939 cards come up but only 319 T212 come up.

That's a big difference.

And if I look at PWCC auctions sometimes he has a few hundred T206 and like 5 or less T212 (Often he doesn't have any T212).

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T215 Pirates are rare? Then this sucker is something you don't see every day. Love the T215 Pirates (all of which are "Authentic")!! Considering the OP's questions has pretty much been answered - T206s generally (ignoring backs) are more common than ever other T, E and D issue - lets see some rare cards!

No, My question was not answered.

I am referring to all cards not just graded cards.

T206 is more valuable so therefore more are graded which throws of the numbers alot so we cannot go off PSA numbers.

If you went off those parameters then T206 is much much more common than 1991 Topps.

We all know that ain't True. LOL.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by that T206 Guy

No, My question was not answered.
I am referring to all cards not just graded cards.

My bad. And apologies if I hijacked the thread. But I am confident that the pop reports are reflective of overall population. T206s were issued over a 3-year period and were widely distributed across most of the country east of the Mississippi (and some west). Most other T, E, and D cards were issued in a single year and were super regional. For example, e92 Croft’s cocoa were distributed in 1909 only, and only in Philadelphia. M131 Baltimore Newsboys were only distributed in 1911 to kids who sold the Baltimore newspaper. And D304 were distributed in western, NY in 1911 only.

So, based on the facts that most T, E, and D cards were regional and single-year issues vs t206 which was much more geographically diverse and a 3-year issue, t206 is naturally much more plentiful.

More pics, sorry could help myself (e92 Croft’s cocoa, m131 newsboy, D304 General Baking back)

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My bad. And apologies if I hijacked the thread. But I am confident that the pop reports are reflective of overall population. T206s were issued over a 3-year period and were widely distributed across most of the country east of the Mississippi (and some west). Most other T, E, and D cards were issued in a single year and were super regional. For example, e92 Croft’s cocoa were distributed in 1909 only, and only in Philadelphia. M131 Baltimore Newsboys were only distributed in 1911 to kids who sold the Baltimore newspaper. And D304 were distributed in western, NY in 1911 only.

So, based on the facts that most T, E, and D cards were regional and single-year issues vs t206 which was much more geographically diverse and a 3-year issue, t206 is naturally much more plentiful.

More pics, sorry could help myself (e92 Croft’s cocoa, m131 newsboy, D304 General Baking back)

No worries. No need to apoligize.

I don't remember off the top of my head but I did read somewhere how many T206 were printed and how many are still around.

I have not seen that info for any other set besides late 80's early 90's where they printed like 5 million of each player and there were like 900 cards a set.

Does anybody know the print runs of older sets?

Or has anybody done any research (like the two guys that tracked like 100,000 T206 cards on ebay to come up with how rare the backs were)?

[x2drich2000]

To follow up on my previous post, the point of using a high profile, highly collected player like Young, Cobb, Mathewson as an example allows us to make the general assumption that more of that player are graded vs non graded (these are likely to be closer to 100% being graded) and that the ratio between graded/non-graded cards of that player is somewhat consistent between different sets. As long as these assumptions are close (this of course is much more difficult on rarer sets), the relative scarcity between the different sets for that player, whether graded or not, can be determined. There are still going to be other factors at play such as different series, short prints, etc that will play with the actual numbers a bit, but the idea is there. Also, this obviously can't be done to compare a set like t212 vs t206 since none (?) of the players are in both sets.

With regard to print numbers, I think you are thinking of Scot Readers t206 book. Here's an old thread that discussed the E sets compared to each other and to T206s and includes some guesses/thoughts on populations:https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=83340

[Marckus99]

There easily still exists 50,000 of each T206, e.i. 81 Donruss.
Easily.

[hcv123]

The T206 to 1991 Topps analogy doesn't hold water imo because 91 Topps have virtually no value - All T,D and E cards do. That value would be potentially enhanced by grading (not so for 1991 Topps). I don't think you are going to get a more exact answer than has already been given. I think looking at total graded pop numbers for the various sets you are looking to compare is a good working model for relative scarcity.
Ryan - AWESOME cards as always! Thanks for posting. I know you are looking for additional Pirate cards - I think it would be safe to say you have a Chance!

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Steve (BrassRat on the bored) has a freak pirate - split front and back - of chief meyers; hands down one of the coolest cards around. Maybe he will post it.

Cheers

Also, my understanding is that there are two near-complete T215 Pirate sets. The SGC near-set and another in the Edward Wharton-Tigar collection in the British Museum. Each near-set is missing different card(s).

More info on the overall collection:
https://research.britishmuseum.org/r...27688&partId=1

As a side note, I figure that this Meyers was factory cut. I can't imagine that anyone with a sheet could have done this bad of a job of they were hand cutting. . (Not claiming/suggesting that it was ever factory-released though...)

Steve

[philliesphan]

Steve-

After spending the last four years in London, I can tell you that I have very little confidence in how (if?) the British Museum has handled Wharton-Tigar's collection. I got the sense that it was housed off-site, and that anyone who had any functional knowledge of the collection has since retired and/or moved on.

I hope I'm wrong, but...

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Also, this obviously can't be done to compare a set like t212 vs t206 since none (?) of the players are in both sets.

Thought I would comment on this tiny sliver I extracted...there are at least 7 players that appeared in both the T206 set and in at least one of the three Obak issues. I knew that there were a few, but I double-checked an old thread on here that listed these seven:

Shad Barry
Izzy Hoffman
Hunky Shaw
Fred Abbott
Frank Arellanes
Roy Brashear
Chick Gandil

Brian

[PhillyFan1883]

To the OP’s question searching PSA and SGC’s pop reports would be a good starting point to see the rarity and compare. I may be stating the obvious, but I always find it helpful when I am researching cards. Won’t account for raws of Course, but old cardboard dot com is another great resource.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thought I would comment on this tiny sliver I extracted...there are at least 7 players that appeared in both the T206 set and in at least one of the three Obak issues. I knew that there were a few, but I double-checked an old thread on here that listed these seven:

Shad Barry
Izzy Hoffman
Hunky Shaw
Fred Abbott
Frank Arellanes
Roy Brashear
Chick Gandil

Brian

Thanks for the correction Brian, I wasn't 100% when I stated none, and actually am quite surprised there are that many.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

There are other major leaguers in T212 that appear in sets besides T206 to aid in cross comparisons. Ping Bodie comes to mind who is in T207 and Cracker Jack at the very least.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Rick, PSA is stupid. They are terrible at rare and old cards (hell, they are terrible at all cards). I have seen flips that say brown old mill and brown Lenox that are not brown, and PSA is famous for one of the biggest steals of all time on a mislabeled old mill that was a brown old mill. And this is not the only chance r215 pirate. There is one other known - there is a complete t215 pirate set out there (May be missing one card). I will admit - SGC’s may have number grades, so in this case they both may be wrong, but the ones in SGC flips may be the set, and that set may have actually been assembled with cards from packs; there is only one set and then a few single stragglers. Regardless, I will take SGC all day, every day on old and rare T, E, and D cards and PCs and anything rare.

T215s are all Authentic because they think the t215 pirates out there were cut from a single sheet and not put into packs (given to servicemen in the pacific). Here is a great write up by REA from a t215 pirate auction a while back.

Steve (BrassRat on the board) has a freak pirate - split front and back - of chief meyers; hands down one of the coolest cards around. Maybe he will post it.

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...dinary-rarity/

BTW - Ben, good looking Cobb. Congrats. I agree, post cards!!

Thank you for the info. It seems that I always learn something from these types of threads.

Rick

[Orioles1954]

We could do all sorts of numerical analysis but in reality total quantities are 100% speculation. Fun to think about? Sure.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

There easily still exists 50,000 of each T206, e.i. 81 Donruss.
Easily.

Scott Reader has put the number of each T206 remaining in the 3,000-6,000 range. That seems more likely to me, but perhaps the super prints like Cobb Red and Yellow Chance are north of 10,000 extant.

See page 28:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/I...al-edition.pdf