Doolan/Broad Leaf 460 lot ends abruptly ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

After going over $200 last nite....this BL 460 card on ebay (noted in prior posts) was ended by
seller. But, not before some veteran collectors (including at least two Net54er's) had bid on it.

Doolan (batting) is a 350/460 series card and can exist with a BL 460 back....so, my question is....
what was the prevailing opinion of this particular card....was it legit ?

And, don't tell me...."it wasn't graded, therefore not real"....I don't buy that explanation.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-1909-T206-BROAD-LEAF-CIGARETTES-460-SUBJECTS-CARD_W0QQitemZ280148975243

[Archive]

Posted By: ScottIngold

On Sep-04-07 at 20:49:58 PDT, seller added the following information:

this card is being sent to psa for authentication due to the numbers of emails/questions i have received. i know this card to be authentic and believe now that it is worth much more than originally thought. once authenticated the card will be relisted.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

My thought is it was real...and it looks like the seller wised up.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Dale

I was willing to take a chance on buying and sending it in; seller is making a good move.

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

the card looks fine (real), he said he will relist it, so i think overall it was handled well and honestly.

MS

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc S.

and I was ready to up my bid in the final hours.

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry

It will grade as "authentic" and not reach PSA-1

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

obviously will only grade "Authentic"...but worth at least $2000+ IMO.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

wow michael...thats a strong price. I would have thought maybe $1200 for a card in this shape and not grading a 1.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

I contacted the seller twice and asked about the history behind where this card came from. he eventually emailed me back and told me that he had gotten this card and a number of other older cards from an 87 year old neighbor lady. If the card is genuine it would be the first doolan 460 I've seen

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, if seller re-lists this card....we should make this our "NEW POLL" quiz ?

I always felt it is a real one and I put my $$ behind this feeling....as, I was one of the dozen (or so)
that bid on this card (prior to seller ending it).

It would've been nice to get a BL 460 for less than $500....it's the last T206 back I need.... to have
all the 38 (or so) permutations.

Now, when he re-lists it, who knows what "ridiculous" price it will go for........

So, let's hear your numbers ? ?

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Great idea...if he relists it on ebay we will have a contest to see where it ends....unless that's a bad idea .....

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

dave, there are certain cards, that command very strong prices, regardless of condition. now, obviosuly the better the condition, the higher the price, but even in this beat-up shape, it is, what it is...how many BL 460's have you seen in the past 12 months on eBay? compare that to the number of drums, then compare that to the number of uzits, etc, etc. i would pay close to $2000 for this card, and i have a feeling others would agree with me (i am sure some will disagree, but this is my opinion). it is just simply, such a tuff card to come across, you will see tons of drums for every BL 460.

MS

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The Willis Broadleaf 460 in my last auction was an SGC 10 and it sold for $2109. Now at that level I'm not sure how important it is that Willis is a HOFer (a minor one at that). But I'm going to guess that the Doolan in an Auth holder will sell for around $1500.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I thought you'd go for this idea.

I feel strongly that this Doolan card will pass muster as an authentic one.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

i agree with you barry...and I don't know about seeing "tons" of drums for every bl 460....that may be a stretch!

peter ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

peter- agreed that "tons" might be the wrong choice of words. i will adjust my language...

you will see "several" drums for every BL 460.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Dale

The early discussions around here was that the card was not real, that no Doolan's with the BL460 existed....if it gets an authentic holder its an easy 2k because its probably 1 of a kind.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I completely agree with you regarding the DRUM backs.

And MIKE.....

The Broad Leaf 460 is a just sub-set of one of the 15 basic T-Brands in the T206 set. While the DRUM is a major brand
and is very highly sought after by more T206 collectors than the BL 460. The reason being is that there are many more
collectors seeking to acquire the 15 basic brands than there are collectors trying to acquire all 38 permutations.
Most advanced T206 collectors are content to acquire the BL 350 back to round out their T-brand set.

Therefore, the old law of....supply vs demand....favors the DRUM backs. This back has always, and will always command
a higher $$$$ figure than an equivalent BL 460.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

sorry guys I just have a really hard time believing this card in an authentic holder would draw $2k.

basically ya'll are saying a beat up authentic broadleaf 460 is worth more than what a drum psa 2 or sgc 30 would be valued at?


i know we cant really go by the price multipliers on these cards...but, when the drum is said to be in the 65x range and a broadleaf 460 in the 70x...even if those number are off a little which i know they are, things just don't add up to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I politely disagree with you. I understand you have forgotten more about T206 than I will probably ever know...but.....if a nice common Drum comes up for sale, in fair condition, I think a nice fair conditioned BL460 will sell for more....At least that is what I think I have seen in recent years....

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

"The Broad Leaf 460 is a just sub-set of one of the 15 basic T-Brands in the T206 set. While the DRUM is a major brand" -Ted.

Ted- i always value your posts and your knowledge, but please don't state the obvious to me. i'm not a novice T206 collector.

i wasn't comparing drum vs. ALL broad leaf (350 & 460)...just drum vs. BL 460.

and i'll stand by my comment, that "you will see "several" drums for every BL 460"...

***edited to echo Leon's additon, that a BL 460 will certainly outsell an equivalent Drum.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Leon and Michael...

My point and I think Ted's as well (if i understood) wasn't that same conditioned Broadleaf 460's and Drums wouldn't be different in prices. But, it seems the current market for Drums in SGC 30's has recently been at the $2000 level...I'm just finding it hard to believe a Broadleaf 460 not even in a 1 holder would draw that?

I of course believe a Broadleaf 460 SGC 30 would outsell at Drum SGC 30..

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

dave, believe it, because i would have bid close to that number, as i know others would too...

many of you get hung-up on the grade: "Authentic" vs. a PSA 1 vs. a PSA 2 vs. an SGC 20 vs. an SGC 10, etc...

the bottom line is: IF a card is super rare, it does not matter that much whether it has a pinhole in it, or a crease, or worn corners, or sharp corners, or has been trimmed, etc...obviously the higher the grade, the higher the price, BUT, with such rare cards, even "beat-up" examples command a lot, because they are on so many peoples "want-lists", right dave & ted?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVE

Let's get this straight, I'm not one of the guys "touting" a 2K figure on the Doolan/BL 460 card.
I was one of the bidders on this card and was willing to go up to 500....as is.

LEON

For as long as I can remember....DRUM backs (for the reasons I just stated in the prior post)
have commanded top dollar in this "ballgame". Yes, I am willing to concede that in the current
market "window" (ebay, etc.) of time, that perhaps a BL 460 might garner a higher price....but,
when you look at a macro-perspective of these two backs, the DRUM wins by a horse length.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence....but, I am looking at this picture from 30 years of
experience. You and I have have discussed this subject over the phone months ago. Our dis-
cussion also, included the topics of the "Shappe" and "Nodgrass" and other such T206's. All
these cards back in the '80s were considerably less than a DRUM back....yes, even a BL 460.

And, since I collect BB cards with a long-term interest in mind, I don't think these are smart
"investments".

If you are in this for the "short-term", then I might agree with you. We both can come up with
vintage cards, that back in the 1980's were considered "hot cards"....that, no longer are. And,
I am simply saying be cautious.

Incidently, when your Stahl/BL 460 was offered by Dan Koochin, I was the 1st to respond to him
with what I thought was a fair and reasonable offer....but, obviously you offered more....nice get.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

all is good ted, didn't mean to get defensive...it's been slow on the board, figured we have a fake fight, like WWF...haha, just kidding. i hear what you are saying, and you know i am in this for the long game too, not to just make a quick buck...i have no intention on selling my BL 460 anytime soon, if at all.

be well, speak soon.


MS
aka "hulk hogan"

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

after mulling this over I agree with both Mike and Ted. I personally have collected t206 backs since the early nineties but have not focused on factory,series variations terribly seriously...not enough to habe a bl460. I can appreciate the current appeal of it...it's kinda sexy! And I do think a comparably conditioned auth/fair-poor bl 460 will sell for more $$$ than a drum. BUT...I'd rather have the drum!

pete ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The key words in your post are...."I can appreciate the current appeal of it...it's kinda sexy". And, with that being the prevalent
feeling, the selling price in an ebay environment will go ridiculously high on a BL 460 card such as this Doolan.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc S.

We heard a month ago that it was in the process of being authenticated / holdered....

I was discussing it with a fellow Net 54'er tonight. Any insight would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Marc

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I would agree with Ted. I think there are many more people looking for examples of each of the brands and not necessarily concerned with the series. That is not to say that this is not a highly desireable card. I think we all know that. I doubt it would bring more than a GD Drum common. But I guess we will see very soon.
JimB