Lionel Carter at the 1972 Detroit show (from Sport Fan)

[trdcrdkid]

Here is Lionel Carter's lengthy, detailed, and quite funny account of the Third Annual Midwest Sports Collectors Convention, a.k.a the Detroit show, as published in the November-December 1972 Sport Fan. It's similar in many ways to his account of the 1974 Detroit show in The Ballcard Collector that I posted a couple of months ago (here: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217706), except this was Carter's first Detroit show, and it was at this show that he first met many of the people he wrote about in the 1974 account, including Bill Mastro and Joe and Karen Michalowicz. The first thing Mastro did was show Carter the T206 Wagner he had recently bought for $1500, and during the Saturday auction, Carter noted, "Every bid placed by Bill Mastro bought quite a turning of heads and a craning of necks, but then, Bill is quite a showman." Yes, that's one way of putting it. Also, in the thread about the 1974 article, somebody mentioned that Lionel had quite an appreciation for the ladies, and that's definitely true here, too.

Anyway, here he is, the inimitable Lionel Carter.

[Leon]

Great read. Looks like T207 Ragan was a toughie back then too.

[Jason]

That was a great read and quite the detailed account by Mr Carter. Even a T210 reference.

[Stonepony]

Another fun read. I've noticed early collectors really had a keen interest in collecting regional issues from the 50-60s

[brian1961]

Yeah, Dave, you could say that again!!!!!!!!!!!! ---Brian Powell

[GasHouseGang]

Great read. I thought it was interesting that he only wanted to sell cards to collectors for what he paid for them, even when he knew they were worth more. I wonder if he ever tried to make a bit of money to use for building his own collection? It almost seems like he didn't really care about that aspect. He was really more interested in trading for his needs if he could.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Great read. I thought it was interesting that he only wanted to sell cards to collectors for what he paid for them, even when he knew they were worth more. I wonder if he ever tried to make a bit of money to use for building his own collection? It almost seems like he didn't really care about that aspect. He was really more interested in trading for his needs if he could.

David, by 1972 Mr. Carter owned just about every vintage baseball card he wanted. His wants were minuscule, and tough to find. He bought the far majority of his collection for pennies apiece, as well as got many of them for a penny apiece out of the wrapper. In 1972, the organised adult collecting hobby was just beginning to sprout. It grew exponentially each year, and the prices quickly shot up as new collectors were willing to pay more and more for these beautiful old baseball cards. Well, Mr. Carter didn't feel inclined to pay those ever-increasing prices. Perhaps five-ten bucks a card was his max. After paying a few pennies apiece for most of them; well, you can imagine his disinterest. He could well afford them, mind you, but chose not to participate in the craving frenzy buying mania that was going on.

As far as his selling common Topps and even a few send away 1961 Post Cereal for a few pennies each in 1972, he wrote that he liked to help young collectors---as I was at that 1972 show. I still have some of those cherished '61 Post Cereal I purchased from Mr. Carter during that glorious weekend of my first major show!

A few weeks afterwards, Mr. Carter sent me a photocopy of the article he published in SPORT FAN, thinking I might enjoy reading it, since he shared our brief encounter over his gorgeous 1959 Bazooka Bubble Gum Mickey Mantle. Indeed, I devoured every word, and still treasure that document to this day. I will never forget how Lionel Carter helped me, and taught me so much about cards and our hobby, those many years ago.

He even invited to his home to see his massive collection, which I accepted. I was privileged to thoroughly enjoy a couple visits to see Mr. Carter's great collection. It looked so cool, carefully mounted in albums.

Years later, in about 1981, I recalled one of the few T-206s I had was distinctly better than Mr. Carter's. Remembering how much he'd helped me, and our years of correspondence, I sent him my Harry Krause, as a token of gratitude, friendship and kindness. A week later, Mr. Carter sent Harry right back to me, thanked me, but told me he never accepted gifts of cards from other collectors. He added that I will at least be able to say I have one card better than one in Lionel Carter's collection. Mr. Carter was something else; a man of very strong principles, as well as opinions. His opinions were usually spot-on.

Wow. Thanks for hanging in there with this the long remembrance on Mr. Carter. I hope you weren't bored.

I appreciate it that you uploaded this for the lads and lasses. ---Brian Powell

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by brian1961

David, by 1972 Mr. Carter owned just about every vintage baseball card he wanted. His wants were minuscule, and tough to find. He bought the far majority of his collection for pennies apiece, as well as got many of them for a penny apiece out of the wrapper. In 1972, the organised adult collecting hobby was just beginning to sprout. It grew exponentially each year, and the prices quickly shot up as new collectors were willing to pay more and more for these beautiful old baseball cards. Well, Mr. Carter didn't feel inclined to pay those ever-increasing prices. Perhaps five-ten bucks a card was his max. After paying a few pennies apiece for most of them; well, you can imagine his disinterest. He could well afford them, mind you, but chose not to participate in the craving frenzy buying mania that was going on.

As far as his selling common Topps and even a few send away 1961 Post Cereal for a few pennies each in 1972, he wrote that he liked to help young collectors---as I was at that 1972 show. I still have some of those cherished '61 Post Cereal I purchased from Mr. Carter during that glorious weekend of my first major show!

A few weeks afterwards, Mr. Carter sent me a photocopy of the article he published in SPORT FAN, thinking I might enjoy reading it, since he shared our brief encounter over his gorgeous 1959 Bazooka Bubble Gum Mickey Mantle. Indeed, I devoured every word, and still treasure that document to this day. I will never forget how Lionel Carter helped me, and taught me so much about cards and our hobby, those many years ago.

He even invited to his home to see his massive collection, which I accepted. I was privileged to thoroughly enjoy a couple visits to see Mr. Carter's great collection. It looked so cool, carefully mounted in albums.

Years later, in about 1981, I recalled one of the few T-206s I had was distinctly better than Mr. Carter's. Remembering how much he'd helped me, and our years of correspondence, I sent him my Harry Krause, as a token of gratitude, friendship and kindness. A week later, Mr. Carter sent Harry right back to me, thanked me, but told me he never accepted gifts of cards from other collectors. He added that I will at least be able to say I have one card better than one in Lionel Carter's collection. Mr. Carter was something else; a man of very strong principles, as well as opinions. His opinions were usually spot-on.

Wow. Thanks for hanging in there with this the long remembrance on Mr. Carter. I hope you weren't bored.

I appreciate it that you uploaded this for the lads and lasses. ---Brian Powell

Brian, thanks for sharing your memories -- they weren't boring at all! I didn't realize that one of the collectors Carter mentioned in this piece was on Net54 and reading it. That's very cool. I have a lot more of his writings, and will be posting more of them as I have time.

[GasHouseGang]

Bored! Not at all. I love hearing these stories. I can tell that the old-time collectors felt the money emphasis was ruining the hobby they loved. Imagine what Lionel would think now! The times were certainly different. I remember reading how one old-time collector had two T206 Honus Wagner cards and he sent one to a fellow collector that needed it for his collection. So the fellow that received the card sent a check for $100 which was returned. And he sent it again, and it was returned again. I might be making this story up, but I think I remember reading this in SCD back in the day. I don't know which collectors were involved in this exchange, but it wouldn't surprise me if one of the collectors was Lionel Carter.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Bored! Not at all. I love hearing these stories. I can tell that the old-time collectors felt the money emphasis was ruining the hobby they loved. Imagine what Lionel would think now! The times were certainly different. I remember reading how one old-time collector had two T206 Honus Wagner cards and he sent one to a fellow collector that needed it for his collection. So the fellow that received the card sent a check for $100 which was returned. And he sent it again, and it was returned again. I might be making this story up, but I think I remember reading this in SCD back in the day. I don't know which collectors were involved in this exchange, but it wouldn't surprise me if one of the collectors was Lionel Carter.

You're probably thinking of Willie Ratner's sale of his T206 Wagner to longtime hobby writer Wirt Gammon in 1972, which has been a part of hobby lore ever since. Peter Nash wrote about that card's history in Hauls of Shame a couple of years ago:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=25287

"Ratner held onto his collection through the Great Depression and also through his tenure with the newspaper which spanned from 1912 to 1972. During this long stretch of time Ratner repeatedly turned down offers for his Honus Wagner from aspiring hobbyists like Wirt Gammon from Chattanooga, Tennessee. Gammon was a fellow newspaper writer who also published and wrote for the early hobby newsletter The Ballcard Collector and after making several offers to Ratner for the hard-to-get card decided to take a chance and send him a blank check in the mail. To his surprise, Ratner fulfilled his request for the card. According to The Complete Book of Baseball Cards, “Ratner wrote in only the original sum offered by the Tennessean—a mere pittance compared to later offers. Ratner had not been holding back, he told the buyer– he had simply wanted to keep the card. In effect he gave the card away.”

Wirt Gammon had wanted a Wagner ever since he was a little kid. In his “Gammon’s Corner” column in 1970 he fondly recalled how he collected T206 cards soon after they were released in cigarette packs sold by the American Tobacco Company. Gammon wrote, “When T205 and T206 began around 1910, I was five years old and I can remember back when I was about seven that these cards began to appear everywhere. Many smokers collected them. If not, their children collected the bright colored pictures, often begging parents to buy a pack.” Gammon recalled how he only had one relative who was a smoker and that, much to his dismay, his uncle smoked a brand that didn’t include baseball cards. Gammon also recalled that many smokers simply discarded the cards after opening their pack and he wrote, “It was nothing to walk along the street and see a baseball cigarette card on the sidewalk or the edge of the road or edge of a yard.” So that’s how he collected them. He added, “The best I could hope for was to find a card or two along the sidewalk, where some smoke-stained-fingered guy had discarded it as he opened his pack.” Gammon, however, never found a Wagner in the gutter and had to wait several decades until Willie Ratner was willing to part with his prized possession.

Gammon had been searching for years for his own Wagner via want ads he placed in The Sporting News and other publications with no luck until he finally acquired his “Holy Grail” from Ratner. Little did Gammon realize that like his fellow scribe he was merely a temporary caretaker of the T206 treasure and he ended up parting with the rarity when a young Brooklynite named Bill Haber offered him $500 for the card on June 1, 1970. Haber was working as the baseball director for the Topps Chewing Gum Company and was responsible for the player bios and facts found on the backs of baseball card issues. He was also one of the sixteen founding members of the Society For American Baseball Research in 1971 and according to the current SABR website he was, “considered one of the greatest biographical researchers” in baseball research history.

But Haber’s other passion was baseball cards and he was a dedicated collector who by 1970 had assembled near-complete sets of the T205, T206 and T207 issues. According to Haber it took him 19 months to assemble the sets and in his “Haber Hi-Lites” column in The Ballcard Collector, he said his “greatest stroke of luck occurred when (he) found a non-collector who had a (Eddie) Plank, and (he) bought it from him for $6.” That left Haber with only the Honus Wagner on his wish list and he then proceeded to “make a cash offer to all (he) knew had the card.” Haber recalled, “The going price when I was looking was $250. I decided it was worth $500 to me.” Wirt Gammon accepted Haber’s cash offer and after the collector “borrowed $350 from (his) wife” Gammon shipped the Wagner card up north to Brooklyn where it remained in Haber’s collection for several decades until the mid-1990’s."

Gammon's 1970 column that Nash quoted was posted by me here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217635

Gammon later had other Wagners, I believe. I have most of his columns from that period, in The Ballcard Collector and SCD, but there are a lot to go through. I also have the "Haber's Hi-Lites" column quoted by Nash.

[GasHouseGang]

Thank you for refreshing my memory! I wasn't too far off.

[brian1961]

David, I sure loved reading about Bill Haber, whom I also met at the 1972 Midwest Convention. I purchased a mint set of 1969 Topps Super Baseball from him. I had never heard of them before. As I carefully shuffled through the cards, I came to the Mickey Mantle. As soon as I saw that breathtaking card, my mind said, "SOLD". The set was one of the highlights for me at that show. Bill Haber was such a kind man, and his untimely passing at around 53 shook us all. Terrible loss for his family, and to our hobby.

Say David, if perchance you happen to run into any articles or tidbits of the 1953 - 1955 Stahl-Meyer Franks baseball card promotion from metropolitan New York City, would you please load 'er up here, or send me an email. I always love info and personal experiences of people who collected that scarce regional. Same goes for the 1953-54 Briggs Franks, and the 1954 Wilson Franks.

Thank you in advance for your time to keep a "look-see".

Take care. Best regards, Brian Powell

PS You might be interested in my soon-to-be-released book on postwar regionals. It's loaded with tons of hobby history and personal anecdotes gleaned from hobby papers of the past, personal interviews, and my own personal experiences. PM me if interested. Fair warning---it's a 478-page book on a CD. Just pop it into the disc drive of your computer or laptop, and it looks super, with the 32 or so pictures looking glorious!

[TCMA]

I was just searching for something else and discovered Lionel Carter's comments here regarding my father's wardrobe. Ouch!:

[toppcat]

Damn hippies!