Ethics Question...OK or Crazy

[jingram058]

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

[butchie_t]

to each their own.

Personally, no, I would not do that if they were mine. But they are not and it does not matter.

Cheers,

[ALBB]

Yes, I agree... Id cut it up and burn it..along with any other T cards of unsavory characters

[zoomfest]

Ty Cobb was a major jerk and not well liked as well. As such, feel free to give me all of your Cobb cards and I will make sure that you will never have to see that ass again.

[butchie_t]

Honus Wagner ate babies for lunch. It is a little known fact.......so.......Bring'em.

[chadeast]

Chase was certainly an unsavory character, but not sure why it compelled you to destroy the card. It's a picture of someone from 100+ years ago on a piece of cardboard after all. I'm guessing it must have given you some kind of catharsis. It is your card, so to each his own.

[wazoo]

Nope. No. Never. I think your heart is in the right place but feels like destruction of a piece of history.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Honus Wagner ate babies for lunch. It is a little known fact.......so.......Bring'em.

...and don't get me started on that Ruth guy




.

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by zoomfest

Ty Cobb was a major jerk and not well liked as well. As such, feel free to give me all of your Cobb cards and I will make sure that you will never have to see that ass again.

+1

[jjp3rd]

I am not sure I understand cutting up the cards...if everyone did that, eventually their cards would increase in value and become even more sought after, which would seem to be counter to your motivation.

There are a number of players (and teams) whom I don’t collect, but I don’t trash their cards, I simply avoid buying them unless, as you suggest with your 50’s cards, I am building a set.

You have the right to do whatever you want with your stuff, but I am not sure creating more scarcity is a good way to de-emphasize a player’s cards.


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[realbigfatdog]

For what it's worth, I love this "despicable" player, personally. I would have been happy to take that card and give it a living home. Reading the OP brought a tear to my eye.....

#FreeHalChase


(I have no idea why these photos wont upload properly)

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

For what it's worth, I love this "despicable" player, personally. I would have been happy to take that card and give it a living home. Reading the OP brought a tear to my eye.....

#FreeHalChase


(I have no idea why these photos wont upload properly)

You better never invite the OP (jingram058) over for dinner.

[FrankWakefield]

Impulsive, that's what it was...

OK, because you owned it.

A bit of momentary craziness for cutting the card up...


I'm no fan of Kirby Puckett. I think the Hall should have never put him in. Numbers aren't strong enough, played to short a time, numbers he has are a bit skewed because of that trash bag ball park... and then there is the domestic violence. (And I know there are fanatical fans who adored his play and that ball park.) With that in mind, I just don't gather / collect KP cards. I understand that you didn't know about him until after you got the card.

So, I think that 'real crazy' would be to keep buying Chase cards so they could be cut up.


Maybe, next time, when you start hating on a player who's card you have, sell the card and then buy other cards or donate the card proceeds to a charity.

I think I've got an early OJ Simpson card, I have a Ben Chapman premium; I don't wanna cut them up. And I actually like Enos Slaughter, primarily because he was a Cardinal. He has stuff to say in When It Was A Game. I don't doubt that he didn't do a few things that would make me cringe today. Truly, we are all products of our times. Golly, I did stuff 55 years ago of which I'm not proud. I don't like to completely judge someone by the solitary one worst thing they ever did (maybe Chase did more that one thing). I think the better approach has such judgement being done with a totality of what a person has done.

Find an old time collector who knows the story about TCMA cards... Maybe it goes like this: Michael Aronstein collected ball cards and was wanting cards of old teams without spending a fortune. MA got some help from an uncle who had artistic skills. Then MA got together with Tom Collier, and the two of them would spend weekends going to card shows far and wide. They started producing cards, TCMA... They also collected and traded old cards. As the story might go, at one point the wife of one of them was fed up with her husband going to card shows on weekends instead of being with her. She knew her husband loved his cards. He returned home after a long weekend trip to find that his wife had dug out his valuable old cards and cut each card in half, leaving the halves laying on their bed... maybe.

Just didn't want anyone to not know about other ways cards could get cut, if a bit of momentary craziness sets in.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

In my opinion, committing an intentionally outlandish act and then telling everyone here about it has nothing to do with ethics.

Ethics are defined by what one does when nobody else will know.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In my opinion, committing an intentionally outlandish act and then telling everyone here about it has nothing to do with ethics.

Ethics are defined by what one does when nobody else will know.

Well, for me there is some form of penitence in getting it off my chest, and to me, that is ethical. Nobody had to know, I just thought it was the right thing to do to get it out in the open on this forum. I don't really think I need to wallow in insults, though, but I guess that is how it is. And I will be honest, while I had heard of Hal Chase before buying these cards, I knew nothing of his wilful and open throwing of games.

[One 'ol Cat]

It is yours to do with what you will. But collectibles are sort of a different artifact. I mean, if you collect old coins, or stamps, or old baseball cards, they have been owned and preserved by perhaps generations of collectors. We owe a debt, for example to all of the 8 and 10 year old boys who first collected and then preserved the early issues of cards from the nineteenth and early 20th century. To them, they must have held a special place in their memories, because they certainly (to a large extent), held on to them into their adult years.
I mean, people have stamps with Adolf Hitler pictured on them. If I felt that strongly about the person depicted, I would have auctioned it off to someone who (for whatever reason) collects Hal Chase, and then given the proceeds to your favorite charity. But that was me. And that probably sounds like moralizing. But you asked...

[jingram058]

Yes, it was clearly a stupid thing to do. But it's off my chest, and I won't do anything like that again.

And now, on a positive note, my daughter asked me what I would like for Father's Day. Yes, I do have other t201, t202, t205, t206 cards and even an n284 Buchner Gold Coin card. No, I did not cut them up. Not enough to start an album with, but I saw an empty cigarette box on eBay from 1909. Perfect for storing my small stash of tobacco cards.

[topcat61]

Why not do research on the players first and not make the purchase instead of cutting up a 110 year old card? This problem you might have going forward is that the majority of ball players and those in the Hall of fame might not be people you would want to have a beer with if you knew what they've done on or off a field. Reading this post I felt crazy; I've never heard of such a thing, and what's more, why are you judging someone of another era to today's standards?

Hal Chase is permanently banned from the Hall of Fame and for good reason, but he's still a significant player in the history of the game. I would read more on the players and probably start with "The Glory of Their Times: The Story of the Early Days of Baseball Told by the Men Who Played It" by Lawrence Ritter. Hope you dont do that with a Ruth, Cobb or Ted Williams?

[jjp3rd]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yes, it was clearly a stupid thing to do. But it's off my chest, and I won't do anything like that again.

And now, on a positive note, my daughter asked me what I would like for Father's Day. Yes, I do have other t201, t202, t205, t206 cards and even an n284 Buchner Gold Coin card. No, I did not cut them up. Not enough to start an album with, but I saw an empty cigarette box on eBay from 1909. Perfect for storing my small stash of tobacco cards.

That’s sounds like a great way to store them!!


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[Republicaninmass]

Presented, without commentary

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I think they have therapy for those type of anger issues.

[jchcollins]

I'm of the school of thought that we should never get too close to baseball players or heroes in general. I am interested in baseball cards because of what the players did on the field. The backstory from there becomes much less important to me. If you don't approach collecting with this type of attitude, that's fine - but you have to remember that players are human beings just like the rest of us and in that regard, many come down way more on the sinner side than saint. Mickey Mantle boozed it up and cheated on his wife. Willie Mays is well known to be less than cordial when at card shows with adoring fans who have spent hours in line waiting to interact with him for about 15 seconds. Then you have the other big name athletes who are almost more famous for something they did off the field - included here would be the likes of O.J. Simpson and Pete Rose.

I guess you just have to determine what does and does not bother you. I don't need to agree with every waking minute of a player's conduct off the field in order to collect baseball cards. Were that the case, I'd probably need to go get rid of 2/3 of my collection. I will admit I don't like Barry Bonds, but I still have tons of his cards.

PS - one of my main boyhood heroes - Ryne Sandberg of the Cubs - is now endorsing cannabis products and marijuana derivatives. The jokes about Ryno the pothead have already made their first waves on the interwebs. Am I suddenly supposed to rip up his cards and give this newest turn of direction precedence over the fact that he's one of the greatest second basemen of all time? I mean, I could. But I'm not going to.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

...Am I suddenly supposed to rip up his cards...

No.

You're supposed to take the card, cut it up, and flush it.

[jingram058]

The next time I go into an extreme over-reaction over a card, I hereby promise I won't cut it up and flush it, or otherwise destroy it, rather, I will offer it up via this forum. If it hppens, I will probably just give it away, free. Fair enough? I seriously do not think it will ever happen again, however.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

PS - one of my main boyhood heroes - Ryne Sandberg of the Cubs - is now endorsing cannabis products and marijuana derivatives. The jokes about Ryno the pothead have already made their first waves on the interwebs. Am I suddenly supposed to rip up his cards and give this newest turn of direction precedence over the fact that he's one of the greatest second basemen of all time? I mean, I could. But I'm not going to.

Light up a Sandberg rookie, inhale deeply, and see what happens!

[Mark17]

Life is simpler for those of us who don't feel compelled to scrutinize other peoples' lives for the purpose of passing judgement. Especially people who are dead.

I wouldn't want Hal Chase as a business partner or drinking buddy but I have some cards with him on them. He's part of history.

[G1911]

A property may do what they want with their property.

I do not think it reasonable to destroy a card for this reason.

I do not see how one can collect cards of this era, know who Chase is to buy a card, and not know he was corrupt. It's one of the most commonly written about things of c. 1910 baseball, that Hal Chase pretty openly and continuously rigged his play and games.

But, I also don't get why baseball collectors specifically go after generally bad people and pay a premium for that fact. Chick Gandil had a 103 OPS+, about a league average bat at first base. He sells for more than some hall of famers, purely because he did a very bad thing. Eddie Cicotte and Vic Willis are very, very similar pitchers statistically. One cheated and was banned, one made the Hall. Vic sells for quite a bit less than the bad boy. Immorality seems to generally make people more interested in that players cards, not less. I'd subscribe it to "any name recognition influences value", except that the bad boys often outsell clean hall of famers with similar name recognition. I do not get this, but I don't get a lot of things.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

What exactly did the guy do? I haven't heard of too many OJ rookies being shredded. Was he worse than that?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

What exactly did the guy do? I haven't heard of too many OJ rookies being shredded. Was he worse than that?

He was frequently accused of working with gamblers and deliberately tanking plays for personal profit.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

What exactly did the guy do? I haven't heard of too many OJ rookies being shredded. Was he worse than that?

Here's a SABR article on Chase. It's bound to be intersting when the opening sentence is, "Hal Chase, whose big league career lasted from 1905 to 1919, was the most notoriously corrupt player in baseball history."

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/hal-chase/

[slidekellyslide]

C. Stupid

[Mountaineer1999]

Hal Chase was a damn fine ballplayer, led the league in hitting once, damn fine ballplayer !

[FrankWakefield]

Redlegs manager Christy Mathewson wasn't happy with Chase as a player for the Redlegs... yet Mathewson didn't cut him into little pieces or cut him from the team.

On the other hand, at least cutting up that card took some passion. Card collectors with a bit of energy about these old cards can be a good thing!

An odd aspect of The Monster that surprised me was that I'd be hunting for a certain card, looking and looking (and lots of that looking pre-eBay), and there was an excitement in the hunt. And a bit more of excitement opening the mail. But then the card would go in a binder, box, envelope or stack, and that card was forgotten; all because some new yet attained card would become the target of the next search. The Monster's size exacerbates that.

[dbrown]

I'm going to vote "not crazy."

I work mostly with books and photos, not cards, and I have definitely avoided owning some kinds of objectionable or offensive things and, occasionally, destroyed or thrown them away when they showed up in lots or collections. Even when there was money to be made.

We don't talk a lot about the karma that objects have, but that's kind of why we are all here, right? (Right!) And if you think some object has bad karma, you should do something about it.

I had not thought about that in relation to cards until now, but you learn something new every day.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by dbrown

We don't talk a lot about the karma that objects have, but that's kind of why we are all here, right? (Right!) And if you think some object has bad karma, you should do something about it.

I’m not sure that I am here because of karma, but to each his own.