Broker Obligation

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

Financially, the offer isn't unreasonable BUT what about the guy 5 years down the road that buys this card as ex to ex+?

When I mentioned "my integrity being questioned" it was solely based off the 3rd email from Will referencing card swapping and not at the board.

"guarantee for eternity" was not my comment.

Again, let me think about it and get the card back from SGC before I decide exactly what is right.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Just for educations sake, can we see a scan of this card.

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Posted By: andy becker

josh, i know you are kidding, and i know i am exposing myself (not litterally, that would be bad )...but i, and many other reputable sellers would take a card back after an extended period.
will hayes is in that catagory (reputable sellers)...that's why i'm a little suprised at his response.
i echo al's comment above. though al, you said it much better than i could've.
i also agree that an effort should be made by will to contact the consignor. seems like the least he could do.
in the overall scope of business, this topic should have never digressed to a thread in an open forum. it's just bad business, regardless of personal feelings.


edited to add.....brent, josh is reffering to me....and my eternal guarantee.
many dealers have one, most won't say it....for reasons josh mentioned above.
one thing i'd like to add, for those who don't know me....i'm a collector first, and a dealer second. as a dealer, i try to treat collectors as i would want to be treated.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Brent, I think the suggestion was to get that card graded by sgc/psa/gai as authentic. at least that way future purchasers are protected (unless, of course, a dishonest person buys it and cracks it out).

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As far as returns go, I feel that the buyer should be able to on his own (or with the help of friends) determine if the grade is acceptable within a short period of time. Meaning, if a collector need three months time and a pro grader to judge the grade, the buyer should find a different hobby. The same goes for obvious defects (pen mark across back)

However, if the issue is counterfeiting or forgery, where the opinion of an outside expert may be needed, that's a different situation. The seller should give refund for counterfiets.

If it's a case of a fake being returned, the consignor would be largely, or at least partially, be responsible for the refund. As the auctioneer never owns the item, and takes only a small portion of the sales price, it should not be expected that the refund fully from the pockets of the auctioneer.

It is also the responsibility of the buyer to do things in a timely fashion. Even if a dealer allows return for time infinity, the collector can do better than wait for three years to complain the grade.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Keith,

I bought several hundred raw cards from Gary 8-10 years ago. One or two of these would not grade. He reimbursed me years later for these cards.
I make no judgment on anything else associated with Gary.

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Posted By: Sandiegowill

Thanks for all of your input. More than I expected but of excellent quality and impressively rational (remember - I live on Ebay and folks there aren't always so cogent).

I have contacted Brent and proposed the following solution:

Continue in your plan & submit the card to PSA. If it comes back as altered, then please return it to me with both flips, the one from SGC and the one from PSA. Then, we will issue a refund if that is the case.

Note from Will:

I learned a lot today from the entries made on the thread. We will ammend our return policies to read as 30 days for card-grading issues and 14 days for anything else (you know, we've only had about ten items returned in the 6+ years we've been doing this so that is not a huge issue).

Furthermore, we are grateful to have heard the many comments regarding both our service and reputation and, more importantly, how collectors perceive the importance of these integral issues. This knowledge can only be of benefit to our business.

While the large majority of comments in this thread supported our initial position, our conclusion is intended to convey a committed partnership with all of our customers. I very much appreciate the four phone calls made to my office from readers of the thread, all of whom urged us to strongly stick to our stance, as well as the large volume of notes sent directly to my email and kept private urging the same thing. Our decision was not made to downplay those contributions, only to attempt to make the most people happy as possible.

Kindest regards and good luck in tonight's Mastro sale!

Will Hays

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Posted By: Tom L.

Comment: I purchased 2 U.S. Caramels from Alan Hager back around 1992. Both came back as trimmed from SGC years later. Hager was out of business by then, and my loss, right? Well, when I saw him on EBay a couple of years ago, I contacted him about the cards. His response: send them back for a full refund. I'll be damned if I didn't get a full refund from him within a week (I can't remember the amount now, but it was around $800). I know he has taken a lot of [well-deserved] punches in the hobby, including from me, but that was a much better response than I have gotten from several other dealers with great reputations on this board (and under circumstances where a refund was completely warranted under any reasonable definition). I had no reason to expect a refund, yet he provided one almost 10 years later. Just a data point . . .

Question for Adam:
Under California law, how do you ever prove that the bad act was "knowing" on the part of the seller? Does the fact that someone is a long-time dealer give a presumption of knowledge that the dealer would have to refute?

Thanks,
Tom

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Will,

Thats a classy move and frankly one I would have expected from a dealer with as much integrity as yourself.

Look forward to doing more business in the future.

Jim

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Will,

I won some high end cards from Will a year or two ago. He had some issues with his auctions then regarding payment though pay-pal. Will gave me a hard time about it after I pointed it out to him, and then he TRIED TO CHARGE ME THE PAYPAL FEES! That is a violation of their rules and I would have turned him in if I was not talked out of it from a few other board members. My one and only expierence with him was not good and he does not see any of my action anymore...

With that being said... A GOOD dealer would go out of his way to make a repeat or any customer happy. Will likes to play it by his rules and NOT follow industry leaders. That is up to him and I do not fault him for that.. I just know it won't effect me in anyway... JC

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Posted By: Josh K.

As long as we are sharing stories, some of you may remember not to long ago I won a psa 3 e95 plank that SGC deemed to be trimmed when I tried to cross it over. Despite the fact that the card was never cracked out of the psa slab and could have been resold for nearly the full amount that I paid (I know b/c I did so with full disclosure), the seller, bbcardstor, refused to take the card back and issue me a refund.

His listing had a no refund disclaimer, however, he didnt grasp the concept that a happy customer is a repeat customer. For my troubles, I lost about $50 on the card and bbcardstor banned me from bidding on his auctions (as if I would anymore).

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Posted By: barry arnold

Top drawer decision, Will.
I, too, have bought from you on occasion and have always been pleased.
I knew that wisdom would rise to the top after the astute incubation
and reflection of this fine board helped sort things out.

all the best

Barry Arnold

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I bought some Cracker Jacks from Wil Hays and he stated that he would "go out of his way" to say that they were factory miscut and not trimmed, well certainly they were TRIMMED and when I called stating that they were sent in and came back that way.... w/o even mentioning that I was holding him at all responsible ,he snapped at me.

Well ,whether or not you are just the consignor or not , YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE and I too WIL, from that point am done and sure you could care less !....not to mention that I paid to have you overnight them and you's botched that too !!!

Did you bring this to light as a newly found consious?

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Will:

That was a pretty classy gesture.

-Al

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

integrity and honesty are what is most important. Our comments and expieriences are based on just that.

What was the initial gain to open these can of worms?...uh, rectify a situation to sell more cards ?

I suppose you think that it is okay to treat a person rudly just for buying cards from them ?

You blow 500 bucks on altered cards and you'll feel the same way.

My cards were sent to the big 3 - the experts from all say no ,so why would one risk stating that they thought they were factory mis-cut?


I took the chance and failed , but I didnt expect to get jumped on when I called.


We have rights to our feelings and like in all things you win some and you lose some . My opinion is that he feels he shouldn't have to lose anything ever ,if so...the matter could have been resolved 50 post replies earlier !

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Dan, I edited my post almost immediately after I wrote it, but yes, I feel that way.

Someone posted a very specific question about how to handle a very specific situation for one particular customer, and a lot of people chimed in with feedback. The person who made the post made a decision based on some of that feedback. Problem resolved, and in my opinion, it was resolved the right way.

I understand you have had an experience as well, but my opinion is that the person who started this thread did so to get some specific feedback about a specific situation, and not to open up the floodgates to every dissatisfied customer who reads this board.

Like I said, I edited the post almost immediately after I wrote it, so as not to offend anyone, but I do believe what I wrote. I understand that this board is a community, and I am a very new part of it with very few people here who know me, so I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes.

-Al

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Charlie - You said that to you it involved 3 people. Actually, if you use that logic, it involves everyone up to the point that it was trimmed, which might have been before any of us were born.

But if the buyer had contacted Will quickly, Will could have told the consignor before he paid him, or if a consignor wasn't involved, Will could have had a better shot at getting a refund. But again, how far back can you realistically go?

Also, I think there is a difference between how a dealer (especially a high-volume dealer) handles these situations, and how a collector does. If I unknowlingly purchased a trimmed card and sold it to a collector who also missed the trim, then three months later he wanted a refund, it would be a problem for anything over a few hundred bucks...because I am NOT a dealer. A dealer, on the other hand, should probably go above and beyond, and probably can afford to do so.

David - I like your logic regarding forgeries. Only wish the "respected" dealer who sold me mine saw it that way as well. Instead, no response whatsoever to my emails. In this case, I have made a point of telling every collector I think might possibly buy from him that he sells forgeries and ignores emails - definitely hurt him worse than the $240 he took from me. I won't post his name on this board, but believe me - the word is getting around.

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

Will and I have come to an acceptable agreement and I'm sorry for having to bring this "before the board." Thanks for all of your inputs and I think both Will and I have learned something from this.

I also appreciate the private emails from individuals supporting me.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

was trimmed on all four sides, I should have tried to return it to Kit Youing (it was 6 months later), instead of trading it to Ben--as a trimmed card--from whom it was stolen...

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Maybe Kit wanted the evidence back so that he could never be accused of trimming...

so maybe he stole Ben's cards?



Have ANY of Ben's cards ever shown up anywhere?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

WILL HAYS

During the past several years I have won many "RAW" cards
from you on ebay and never had a problem.

Now, this is very interesting (and very coincidental), because
at the last show I set up at, I sold a collector 5 - N162 cards.
They were all non-BB cards, which included Buffalo Bill. All
five had some minor back damage, but the fronts were really
nice. The next day at this show this collector returns with 4
of the these N162 cards graded. Guess which card was rejected
by PSA for "evidence of trim"? You guessed it - Buffalo Bill.

I acquired these N162's in a large collection of 19th century
cards from a veteran collector. Now, I know he did not tamper
with them and I certainly did not. And, people wonder why I am
turned off to the "professional grading services". As far as I
am concerned....grading is an ARBITRARY ART....at best.

TEDZAN