Misleading Auctions, Knowledgeable Sellers

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I don't understand why knowledgable sellers must misrepresent there auctions. This seller (you know who you are) has overexaggerated ("RARE") many of his auctions lately, this one takes the cake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=5101010349&rd=1>



Why must sellers continue to list this way when they know what they are listing is all fabrication?

Lee

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Posted By: Judge Dred

rare (râr)

adj. rar·er, rar·est
Infrequently occurring; uncommon: a rare event; a plant that is rare in this region.
Excellent; extraordinary: a rare sense of honor.
Thin in density: rarefied: rare air.

At least the seller isn't saying "I don't think it's a reprint....." or

"I found this at an estate sale with a lot of other old cards...." or

"My grandfater gave these to me 30 years ago and even though they say reprint, it is an old reprint and probably more valuable than the more recent cards that say reprint or more valuable than recent reprint cards that don't say reprint....." or

I digress.....

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Posted By: Jimmy Scott Elkins

to Lee or anyone. With people bidding on these stupid reprints these days, it seems that more and more "newbies" are out there in our Hobby. I was simply using "Rare" in the heading to let these people know these cards are scarcer than common T206's issued in the 350 and 460 Series. I was not in any way trying to deceive any potential bidders. In fact, I clearly stated it lists for 2.5x times the price of a common in SCD. People can refer to SCD and see that this card is not as "rare" as a Uzit that lists for 40x a common price. I have to admit that I really did not use to use the word "rare" so much in auctions as I do lately. However, after seeing major auctions list "rare" El Principe backs and such (of which I have probably owned no less than 100 through the years), I decided to use the word a little more frequently myself on eBay.

Again, Lee, I have dealt with you before and had NOTHING but great dealings! So, I sincerely apologize to you if my listings have made you mad or offended you in any way whatsoever.

One last statement regarding the word rare. Sure, this Detroit Schaefer is not as "rare" as a Uzit back. It is rarer than common T206's however. With more than 200 copies of each known, are T206 Planks and Magies really rare???? Sure they are highly sought after and valuable. However, I can think of dozens of cards rarer than these two. YET, they are rare - rarer than frequently encountered cards. The ONLY cards I referred to this card being rarer than are common T206's. I don't feel I was trying to mislead anyone. However, I am glad Lee brought this point up - as I will definitely not use the word "Rare" so often in the future. Again, Lee I apologize if I offended you in any way. However, there are new collectors out there who don't know this card lists for 2.5x the common price and have most of the SCD prices in memory like you and I do.

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Posted By: andy becker

...when compared to baseball cards in general. and i think as a seller, you can say anything to "market" your auction. as a buyer, i read the descripion with that in mind. my $.02

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Posted By: jay behrens

The problem tossing around words like "rare", "hard to find", etc is that you run the risk of rending them meaningless. Then when you do really have something that truely is rare, your buyers just think to themselves, yeah right, another "rare" card.

Jay

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Posted By: Jimmy Scott Elkins (t207redcross)

Actually, it made a lot of sense! I was simply trying to market the cards and let people know they are "rarer" than common T206's. I was not intentionally telling a lie or trying to mislead a bidder. I am sure Lee knows these cards are rarer than common T206 cards, as he is often bidding on the same rarer T206 variations (ie: 150 Series Only cards) that I bid on. THAT was my statement and the reasoning behind me using the word "rare". Knowledgeable collectors such as Lee know these cards are rarer than common T206's, but there might be some collectors just starting who DON'T know this. Letting them know simply arms them with the same information a collector like Lee already has!

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Posted By: t207redcross

However, the TRULY RARE items already have a market. The few collectors who will bid on a Lone Jack or T205 Drum already know how rare those items are. For items like these all you would need to list in the heading is "T205 Drum back", and it would easily fetch $2500+++. You don't need to educate potential buyers of these cards, because they are not cards that are selling for less than $50, no matter how they are listed. A good point is when the Maryland antiques dealer came across a hoard of cards and listed them on eBay this past winter. He DIDN'T even list them as T206's, however the Drum I won cost me over $900!!!!!!! These truly rare items are not on most newbies wantlist. However, when I first started collecting, I would have paid a few bucks extra to have a rarer common that was issued in the 150 Series only than a common that was issued in two series and is much more plentiful.

YES, I will be the first to admit I used the term "Rare" to get a few bucks more for each card. But, I also used it to educate some potential bidders as to why these cards are worth a few bucks more than a common T206.

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Posted By: Nickinvegas

In this case I think that using a word like "tough" or "difficult" as opposed to Rare would be more in line.

I can only speak for my self in this regard, but I am afraid to use words like "Rare" or other positive descriptions of a card. I fear that any sort of elaborate descriptions will be scrutinized and perhaps even posted on this board.

Other auctioneers(mastro,RE,Mile High ect.) refer to cards as "Creamy,Deep,Impossible or a "feast for the eyes". If an ebay seller were to use words like this it would definitely get some ribbing. It's as though an ebay seller has to say: "Well, first off this card is common as a 90' score, it has so much wear it make me sick! This card just sucks. Please bid, Thanks."

My rant is not directed at Lee or anyone in paticular. Just an opinion I wanted to express.


Regards,
Nick

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Posted By: andy becker

and that was kinda my point, the words rare, scarce...dare i say 1/1 are so overused, that as a buyer why would you even pay attention? does a new collector get lured in by the word rare? maybe, but i think that's akin to my house (it's currently for sale and the add reads "must see to believe")...now you really don't have to see it...i'd accept a fair offer over network54

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Posted By: steve k

I think most bidders are basically immune to auction words such as rare, scarce, etc., etc., and as Jay pointed out, the seller risks their credibility on the listing. Jimmy admittedly stated that he was hoping that using the word rare would get bidders more interested and then hopefully resulting in a higher price. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - that's marketing and is the choice of each individual seller. You see this style of marketing hundreds of times each day in ads for products on TV and in the newspapers.

A better way, rather than using biased descriptive words, would be to just list a current price guide figure for the card in that grade. Then a prospective bidder can decide for themselves if that $20 book list common is considered a "rare" card. Of course sometimes sellers will state that a listed Fair condition card books for $1,000 in Near-Mint condition as if that $1,000 book price had virtually anything to do with the real value of that Fair condition card.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have had many good dealings in the past with Scott and hope to do so in the future. I just feel that an educated person should educate others that are interested properly. Scott, your descriptions of these cards to the board members is more along the lines of a correct description (in my opinion), you use the words "scarce" and "Tough" that to me is much more appropriate than "Rare" and helps to educate buyers that is tougher than a normal common. As Scott pointed out we have bidded against each other many of times on cards that are "tougher" and I also have came out well in reselling pointing out that they are tougher than an average common.

The bidding on ebay seems to take care of its self and seems to be a great market indicator. I think this board is a great safegaurd for this hobby and I think we are all more than willing to help new collectors. I just hate to see people knowlingly misrepresenting a product all for the sake of the all mighty dollar (Not solely meant for Scott, but also the other out there that knowlingly do such things).

Scott, I did take initail offense to your listing style, but feel you have represented yourself well here that I look forward to doing business with you in the future.

Lee

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Posted By: Scott Elkins (t207redcross)

AND, I will be more conservative in using the word "rare" in the future. To be honest I had the word "tough" in place of the word "rare", then changed at the last moment thinking people would be drawn to rare more than tough. No hard feelings on my part, and I look forward to many more dealings with you in the future Lee! And I would like to add that I am always more than willing to answer any questions from new collectors. In fact, I just answered one today regarding back premiums (hope I helped you if you are reading this post). The advice I gave this collector is to FIRST purchase an annual SCD, as the prices are good indicators. THEN, while you are waiting on it to arrive, check out the T206museum. Also, check out the ended items' prices on eBay, if there are any, of the items you wish to purchase - as Lee stated, that is a good reference of REAL market value.

I am glad Lee pointed my usage of the word "rare" out to me, as I will save it for truly rare items in the future. I really value peoples' opinions from this board on eBay matters. Like Leon Luckey purchasing the SF Hess and having the seller end the auction early (that he claimed to have gotten for a song and a dance). At one time, I thought this practice to be forbidden. But now, I guess there is nothing wrong with it??????

Anyway, enough rambling - this board is great for collectors of all levels and helps spread the new (both good and bad) about dealers. For the record, I am NO DEALER - only a collector - I only sell items to cover purchases of other vintage items!

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Posted By: jay behrens

When it comes to truely rare, vintage cards, the gloves pretty much come off and you do what you need to do in order to get that card.

Jay

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I use to think that way. Then there were postings on this BB to the contrary. I guess most of the people posting were mad b/c they didn't think of contacting the seller and missed out on the card. I have used the practice a few times before as well - I used it to purchase a T205 Drum early and a VA Brights Cabinet card early as well! Afterall, if you snooze, you lose - right????? There are always two sides to a coin - didn't mean to open another can of worms with my statement - just meant to show a point as to how sometimes even the most respected board members do things that all on the board don't agree with.

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

Did anyone see the fool who has bid $487.50 on the PSA 6 Happy Smith T-206 with a factory 42 SWEET CAPORAL back? Good god! No deception in advertising, just a total lack of common sense between 2 bidders!