Opinions on starting to collect high grade T202 & T207....

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Posted By: josh

I am going to tackle one of these sets in high grade. I would like opinions and what I need to know about both sets. Your feedback is appreciated. I really value the opinions of a lot of members on this board. Thanks in advance!

Josh

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Josh,

I like the Triple Folders. 2 players on a card plus an action shot. The backs are also informative. The set is probably under valued (IMO). It would certainly be much easier and cheaper to complete then the Brown Borders.

The Brown Borders have received their due recently and there are a bunch of rarities in the set. I am currently collecting sub sets of both issues and the T-207's are much more difficult.

Good luck on whatever set you choose to go after.

Michael

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

If I had to decide between one of these two sets, I'd go with the T202.

I'm one of the seemingly few people who actually like the T207 set. I've always been a fan of the "old west" and the T207 set just to me anyway, has an "old west" feel to it. The big problem with collecting the set is that many of the cards are seldom seen in any grade, let alone a "high" one. Everyone talks about Lewis, Lowdermilk and Miller, but there seem to be several others (Mike Donlin comes to mind) that are at least as tough. One other drawback in the minds of many people is the lack of hall of famers...there are only 13 in the set; with the biggest being Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker. The cards of Harry Hooper, Bill McKechnie, Speaker and Bobby Wallace are also very tough to find in any grade.

The T202 set on the other hand, is pretty easy to find, with high grade cards not being that difficult. Additionally, pretty much all the hall of famers of the era are in the set. It's also one of the most innovative sets of all time.

Which ever way you go, good luck...both sets are nice!

Steve

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Posted By: paulstratton

If you want to do a high grade set then T202 is really your only option. Even with unlimited funds it would be near impossible to complete T207 in high grade in today's market.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

IMO - Slabbed 202s have to be some of the coolest looking pre war cards around. 207s (imo) are close to the ugliest. 

The T205s and T207s are the ugly step sisters to the T206 but at least the T205 has some makeup on.. Those 207s are hard to look at... but that is probably just me.

martyOgelvie
New York Yankee cards

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Posted By: Mark L

I would work on the t-207's, mostly because they are a nice complement to the t-206 set. On the other hand, the t-202's are beauties, no doubt about it. Maybe they would be more achievable in high grade.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I would say either endeavor will be quite challenging...but...the t202 will be a little easier and less expensive...and will provide a nice upside as well...but in high grade...good luck either way!

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Posted By: Jason L

Affordability: you want to go with T202
Scarcity: T202 is easier
Condition Availability: T202 is probably better
All 3 of the above are linked.

Star Power of Players: T202, no question.
Level of Historical Info: T202, given each one has three panels of text on the reverse.

Attractive Card design: Here's the stickler. most will say the T202 hands down and I used to be in that camp until I started collecting a few T207s (working on the Cubs team set, which unfortunately has Ward Miller, of which there are apparently zero remaining under $1 billion). There is a very understated elegance to this set. I know that sounds cheesy, but these cards are very attractive in the uniqueness. Finding a quality T207 is a special collecting moment. To see the gloss, the way that gloss cracks..., -the colors that do show up are unusual, -the brown tones are haunting. They are very unusual cards, and even though the T202 has so much going for it, don't overlook the T207s.
Buy a couple and see what you think.
And another thing, if you are into getting your cards graded, if you stick to T207, you can avoid the extra money to slab an oversized T202!


Keep us posted on what you decide


Edited to add: Here's an interesting test/experience:
Get your hands on a nice quality T207 and hold it side by side next to a nice quality T205. See what you think.

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Posted By: Matt

"extra money to slab an oversized T202"

SGC doesn't charge extra to slab a T202; does PSA?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

IMO most of the T207 HOFers don't look much like the players...always a detracting factor for me.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I have a complete set of T207.

http://imageevent.com/uffda51/t207heaven

The grades breakdown as follows:

GRADE BREAKDOWN
PSA 7 = 2
PSA 6 = 7
PSA 5 = 19
PSA 4 = 13
PSA 3 = 15
PSA 2 = 3

SGC 70 = 4
SGC 60 = 15
SGC 50 = 33
SGC 40 = 42
SGC 30 = 19
SGC 20 = 13
SGC 10 = 5
SGC AUTH = 1

GAI 5.5 = 1
GAI 5 = 1
GAI 4 = 1


I wasn't avoiding higher graded cards. It's just very tough to find them. I don't think it would be possible to complete this set in ex/nmt or better. Still, these cards grow on you, even in "collector" condition.

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Posted By: ken McMillan

Bruce,

Nice t207's. Makes me envious. A back question for you. Do all the cubs players only come in recruit backs (except Ward and Saier)? What other backs have you seen for the Cubbies?

Thanks,

Kmac

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Posted By: John

Bruce, tht T207 set is out of this world! Thanks for showing us, the Lewis card you have is amazing...he's the last one I'm looking for.

Cheers,

John

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Posted By: Alan

Bruce -

How difficult & costly would the T207 Barney Pelty card be in real poor condition ? Thanks. Alan

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Very nice cards and website Bruce...Thank you for posting it!


Steve

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Posted By: josh

I have decided to go with the T207 set. I really like the look and I want a really hard challenge.... I appreciate all the feedback and I can always count on you guys for the best information!

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Posted By: JimB

Bruce,
That T207 set is awesome. I love the T207 set and it would be my choice among the two.
JimB

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

We find your effort to be extremely admirable

T 207's are interesting because of the biographies. It has long been a mystery
why so many stars were excluded from the set and why so many players who
barely enjoyed a cup of coffee in the Major Leagues were included.

T 207's are exceptionally difficult to obtain in high grades. For example, PSA
has only issued 24 "8s" and 1 nine. Many cards in the set do not have an example
graded above 6. Our understanding is that one collector owns 95% of the 8's. We
have 8 different "7s" Our favorite is the card of Marsans- the first Cuban
to play in the Major League. In the PSA Set registry, the number one set is only 12% completed.

SGC has been extremely difficult on the T 207's. Of the 330 cards in their Population Report,
only 6% (19 cards) have been granted a grade of 60 or above and there is only 1 80
and a handful of 70's.

The sad story for us is when we began our career in the mid 1970's we worked
in Greenwich Village for Fairchild Publications. One day at lunch we took a walk
down Broadway to 9th Street. we wondered to an antique store that had a sign
that said Baseball Cards for sale. New to the hobby, we called our friend, the
legendary George Lyons. He told us it was worth every bit of $500 (more than a week's
salary in those days) to buy 100 different very nice looking "brown backs." which we
did. In 1986 we sold the cards to David Festberg at $50 each because were buying some
near mint 1880's type cards. The T-207's were great to look at. We regretted selling them
the day after we did so

T202s in PSA 8's are readily available. In fact there are several currently on E Bay.

Lot of good luck in your effort

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Mike

Wonderful set, Bruce - never can get enough of that! They really are hard in high grade - even some of the common Recruits rarely show up in better grade than a 50.

Bruce(s) - if the SGC pop report only indicates one 80, they're (not surprisingly) understating things. I think more of these are coming out of the woodwork and being graded as the number of cards in upper-mid grades seems to be increasing. They show a bunch more 84's now than I can remember from previous looks.

Best of luck, Josh - if you like a challenge, this is certainly one.

--
Mike

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Posted By: Bob

Bruce- I think a number of those cards made it in to my set from purchases from David Festberg, At that time David was selling cards at reasonable prices and very good customer service and had a nice inventory of prewar cards. I don't know what happened to change all that.....

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Posted By: paulstratton

Bruce,

I think your data is incorrect. SGC has graded a lot more than 300 or so t207's. Nevertheless, they are basically impossible in SGC 84 or better.

edited to say I researched it awhile back and there were a couple thousand sgc graded t207's and there were around 30-40 graded higher than 84, with none graded NM/MT.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce cited one example in PSA 9. It seems almost impossible given the paper stock.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Good evening Gentleman

We quickly visited the SGC Population Report for 1912

There were a total of 330 T 207's graded...not thousands.

As far as we can tell our initial comment about 1 card in 80
and a handful in 70 remains true. There is not a single card
graded in 84

see below

A 102030405060708084Total
Totals 21 653769813813510330


Please write if you can find evidence to the contrary

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: paulstratton

You have to search by all of the following: recruit, broadleaf, cycle, t207, etc. and then add them up. There are 200 cards in the set Bruce, if there were only 300 total graded that would barely add up to one full set. If each card in the set has at least 10 copies graded(which I believe is true)...well you can do the math.

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Posted By: JimB

I went to the pop report, finally got to T207 and found the same numbers as Bruce. After reading Paul's comments, I went back and noticed they had separated out Broadleaf,Napoleon, etc, without indicating them as T207.

SGC's pop report is convoluted and needs a complete overhaul for it to be at all useful. It was difficult enough to just get the misleading stats under the T207 heading.
JimB

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Thanks Paul


The numbers never made sense to us. The PSA Population Report is much clearer.

In any case, one can see that high grade cards, whether they be recruit, Broadleaf
etc are extremely difficult to find.

We wonder why SGC does not have a summary report for the set.

Has anyone ever asked David this question?


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

We apologize again for the incorrect analysis of the T 207 Population Report

Here is a detailed analysis that will provide some additional insight into how
very difficult it is to obtain a large number of high grade T 207's

Only 9.5% of the cards graded by SGC were given a grade of 70 or above.


Analysis of T 207 - SGC

Brand NameGraded70+

American Tobacco 01-
Broadleaf 43322 ( 1 “84”)
Cycle 17822 ( 4 “84” 1 “86)
Napoleon Little Cigars 9209
Recruit Little Cigars2902310 (23 “84” 3 “86”)
Red Cross 02-
T 207 3306


Total3938369 (70+)
28 (84)
4 (86)


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

SGC gripe - I wish they would calibrate their printer so the number doesn't stray into the green border.

I bought the Pelty from our own Tim Newcomb for, I think, $550, ungraded. That was 4 1/2 years ago. While it has corner wear, there are no creases. Tim and I both called it VG. I think it is one of the ten toughest T207s - maybe in the top five. So, Alan, even a "poor" Pelty might go for $500-600 these days, if you can find one. Kmac, I don't have the teams in my T207 database but I do have the backs for each player. If you give me a list of the Cubs players I can look them up for you.

As Bruce D. points out, these are tough in high grade. I have 2 NM PSA cards and zero NM SGC cards.

Here is the Lewis, for me the most expensive card in the set.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

It's a gorgeous "5", Bruce. Nobody can take that away from you.

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Trust me when i tell you a T207 set in grade 5 sgc 60 or higher is not going to happen. The higher graded cards are all locked up in sets that i do not belive will ever be broken up. In fact if one were to compleate a t207 set in any grade that is a huge victory. My best guess is that there are less then 20 compleate sets in the world.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Of course they will be broken up! Despite what the theme song to "Fame" might have you believe, people don't live forever! Completing a quality set solely depends upon how young you are and how much disposable income you have!

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Posted By: John

Bruce B. we should get your Mr. Lewis together with his two buddies over on my end for lunch sometime wouldn't they look sharp together!



Again great looking set Bruce B.

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

My point being is that the sets i do not belive will be broken up maybe someday sold as complete sets. Do like the fame reference though! Right now does not matter how much you are willing to invest in t207 the cards are just not there. My best guess is without buying a total set in sgc 60 = 5 or above of which i only know of 3 sets that fit this you will spend upwards of 100k or more and will not find the cards. The t207 cards may in the future become more avalible but at this time they are not. the 3 tough cards pictured on this thread in 5 or higher would run you over 20k just for 3 cards and there are 200 in the set or more if doing variations. A Pelty card in sgc60 would run 4k and add in a donlin which you cannot find in sgc 60 that would add another 8k so just for 5 of the 200 cards in a grade of sgc 60=5 you are looking at over 30k with 195 more to go if you can find them!

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Posted By: Mike

Well put, Patrick!

I'm sure there are at least a few collectors at the wall, needing < 30 to complete, regardless of condition. I can't imagine trying to put together an entire set in the quality of the above examples. Even 40's and 50's of so many of the cards (like the Pelty) can run into the few-many $100's.

--
Mike

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Posted By: ken McMillan

Now that is a nice Ward Miller. What do you think that card would go for alone in that condition or lesser condition?

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Posted By: paulstratton

Listen to Patrick...he knows of what he speaks. You can't buy what doesn't exist no matter how much dough you have to spend. Aiming to put together a solid SGC 40/50 set with nice eye appeal will keep you busy for a few years, if not a lifetime. The Donlin seems to have tripled in price in the last year so start with that one, I wish I would have.

Never get tired of seeing those Wonka.

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Posted By: Mike

So true, Paul - 2 years and counting for me ... 30 left, but the big ones remain.

Just finishing the Pirates will be challenge enough because of Donlin... I also wish I would have started there.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I built my T207 set between about 2002 and May of 2007. I paid some eye-popping prices for certain cards which drew attention from this board, before I was a member. Some thought I was nuts. I pretty much agreed. Now the prices seem like bargains. I've been trying to upgrade a few, such as Birmingham, Rasmussen and Rath, and haven't even seen them offered. D304 prices and D322 prices have also shocked me. Timing is everything.

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Posted By: Bob

It is Bruce. Your set is phenomenal. I was lucky to upgrade my Birmingham to a 50 at the national last year. There was a woman with a binder of scarce back cards and I bought a few for the Red Cycle backs. You think Donlin is tough, what about Lewis no emblem? I consider my set complete but I don't have this variation and only know of 2 collectors who have one.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Tbob, I have removed the Lewis (no emblem) from my memory bank. I'm declaring victory at 200 subjects and calling it a day. You're right about Lewis (no emblem). Darn near impossible!

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Posted By: paulstratton

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that this set(or at least the rarities within it) is one of the few where prices keep going up, even though most people find it ugly and unappealing? I guess it only takes a few new collectors to really change the pricing structure.

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Posted By: Matt

Paul - I think many of the sets contemporary to T206s are going up in value; T205s are showing similar growth to T207s. Perhaps more attention is now being paid to the variations and short prints in those sets as, relative to T206s, much less time has been spent in them in the past.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Well I wasn't really talking about D304's and things of that ilk, just the mainstream sets. I didn't know t205's had been rising as I don't follow them and a lot more people collect that set than t207. People have know about the variations and tougher cards for years, it's just surprising how one or two new players can affect the prices realized.