NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-05-2020, 09:54 AM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default Worst Team of all HOFers

I was thinking about some of the poor choices that have been made for enshrining players into the Baseball Hall of Fame and started to wonder "Who were the worst?", "What selections were the most egregious?". I took a look at the WAR of every HOFer inducted as a player (caveat: I know WAR is imperfect, but it's a useful tool in comparing players across eras). Then I sorted them by position (didn't include relievers). The results are listed below. I've included their career WAR and where they rank all-time (only up to 1,000 - yes a few HOFers aren't even in the top 1,000 all-time). Interestingly, every single player was elected by the Veteran's Committee. I knew it was bad there for a while, but didn't realize it was this bad.

C - Rick Ferrell: 31.1 WAR (796th all time)
1B- George Kelly: 24.9 WAR (1000+ all time)
2B- Bill Mazeroski: 36.5 WAR (618th all time)
SS- Phil Rizzuto: 42.0 WAR (467th all time)
3B- Fred Lindstrom: 27.5 WAR (958th all time)
LF- Chick Hafey: 31.1 WAR (797th all time)
CF- Lloyd Waner: 27.9 WAR (931st all time)
RF- Tommy McCarthy 16.2 WAR (1000+ all time)
DH- Harold Baines 38.7 WAR (554th all-time)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-05-2020, 10:25 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Here's my all time Eh team:

C - Ray Schalk (career OPS of 656)
1B - Frank Chance
2B - Red Schoendienst (career OPS+ under 100)
3B - Lindstrom
SS - Bobby Wallace
LF - Hafey
CF - Max Carey
RF - Elmer Flick
DH - Baines

MGR - Tommy Lasorda (lots of managers have won 2 WS, so what?)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-05-2020, 04:21 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,302
Default

Counting only players who were elected primarily for their contributions as players, elected for their talent as players (not players like Cummings who made it primarily because he was credited with inventing the curve), and elected for their performance in a league for which their is a reasonable statistical basis for objective analysis. I am also considering that many of the "worst" are labelled as such because their offensive stats are weak, but they were elected primarily for their defense.

SP: Jesse Haines
SP: Rube Marquard
SP: Catfish Hunter
SP: Jack Morris
RP: Bruce Sutter
C: Rick Ferrell
1B: George Kelly
2B: Joe Gordon
3B: Fred Lindstrom
SS: Travis Jackson
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Lloyd Waner
RF: Ross Youngs
DH: Harold Baines


As a counter, the best player at each who is not in the Hall of Fame, not on the active ballot, and is not excluded for his cheating/gross misconduct (Jackson/Rose/Steroids):

SP: Jim McCormick
SP: Bob Caruthers
SP: Billy Pierce
SP: Kevin Brown
RP: John Franco, no real snubs, too many in.
RP: Dan Quisenberry
C: Jorge Posada, no real snubs
1B: Gil Hodges counting some points for the 68 Mets; Will Clark, Fred McGriff or Mattingly otherwise
2B: Grich or Whitaker, but suspect it will end up being Kent. No real snubs.
3B: Ken Boyer
SS: Bill Dahlen
LF: Minnie Minoso
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Bobby Abreu, no one has really been snubbed here.


On the whole, they have done well with starting pitchers. I think the best non-HOFers are easily better than the worst HOF team.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-05-2020, 11:32 PM
todeen's Avatar
todeen todeen is offline
Tim Odeen
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,892
Default

Not to say yay or nay against Chick Hafey, but imagine the possibilities if he hadn't had the worst eyes in all of baseball history.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati
Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:31 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by todeen View Post
Not to say yay or nay against Chick Hafey, but imagine the possibilities if he hadn't had the worst eyes in all of baseball history.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Hafey is one of my favorite old players, and a great what-if in baseball history that is sadly overlooked. He might be the only man in baseball history whose reputation is less than it would be otherwise because he made the hall of fame. Because he did, we have "Why is Chick Hafey in the HOF? Ridiculous" and "Why isn't Cecil Travis in?!".

His election is a bit absurd and he clearly belongs on this team, but it is something of a shame that this is pretty much all that anyone ever says about him. How the man hit .317 with those eyes I will never understand.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:31 PM
ThomasL ThomasL is offline
Tho.mas L Sau.nders
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 619
Default

Two players not mentioned that I think are easily in the conversation of "worst" HOFer at their position:

Rabbit Maranville at SS
Candy Cummings at Pitcher (I would offer up as the weakest/worst HOFer period)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2020, 05:58 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

P - Jack Morris
C - Rick Ferrell
1B- George Kelly
2B- Red Schoendienst
SS- Phil Rizzuto
3B- Fred Lindstrom
LF- Chick Hafey
CF- Lloyd Waner
RF- Tommy McCarthy
DH- Harold Baines
RP - Lee Smith
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-07-2020, 02:49 PM
Chuck9788's Avatar
Chuck9788 Chuck9788 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 416
Default

C'mon, give Harold some love!

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-07-2020, 05:40 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
Paul Gruszka aka P Diddy, Cambo, Fluke, Jagr, PG13, Bon Jokey, Paulie Walnuts
Pa.ul Grus.zka
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Over by there
Posts: 4,691
Default

Rat,

Thank you for putting Lee Smith.

Guy never won a WS, never won a Cy Young.

Pitched for 8 teams......how does a HOFer get released by 7 teams?????

Lifetime WL Record 71-92

Postseason ERA 8.44

and I'm a Cub fan and saw him many times, never thought for a second he was a HOFer. Wanted him out of town most of the time.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:18 PM
todeen's Avatar
todeen todeen is offline
Tim Odeen
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Hafey is one of my favorite old players, and a great what-if in baseball history that is sadly overlooked....



His election is a bit absurd and he clearly belongs on this team, but it is something of a shame that this is pretty much all that anyone ever says about him. How the man hit .317 with those eyes I will never understand.
Exactly!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati
Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-08-2020, 07:01 AM
psu
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

always thought jim rice was over ratted dave parker played in same era has better numbers and is not in
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-08-2020, 07:41 AM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,486
Default

Fun thread! Of note is that the vast majority of these guys were put in years ago. The “the HOF is getting worse” argument gets a demerit here.

Of course, Baines and Morris selections of late are proof that poor selections can and do still happen.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-08-2020, 07:47 AM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by psu View Post
always thought jim rice was over ratted dave parker played in same era has better numbers and is not in
Rice is very borderline HOF (and I’m a Red Sox fan)...but Parker has lower career BA/OBP/SLG, fewer HR and RBI, lower OPS and OPS+, and less career WAR. Parker had more career hits and doubles, but in more PA.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-08-2020, 08:01 AM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe View Post
Rat,

Thank you for putting Lee Smith.

Guy never won a WS, never won a Cy Young.

Pitched for 8 teams......how does a HOFer get released by 7 teams?????

Lifetime WL Record 71-92

Postseason ERA 8.44

and I'm a Cub fan and saw him many times, never thought for a second he was a HOFer. Wanted him out of town most of the time.
Smith is borderline HOF at best, but he was “released” once in his career...in Sept of his last season. And he played for 4 of those 7 teams after age 35 at the end of his career.

That being said, he’s below the average for a HOF reliever (only a few enshrined). He got elected based on holding the save record for a time. The HOF really hasn’t “figured out” relievers yet.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-08-2020, 10:24 AM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,277
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D. View Post
Smith is borderline HOF at best, but he was “released” once in his career...in Sept of his last season. And he played for 4 of those 7 teams after age 35 at the end of his career.

That being said, he’s below the average for a HOF reliever (only a few enshrined). He got elected based on holding the save record for a time. The HOF really hasn’t “figured out” relievers yet.
Definitely true, Billy Wagner was way better than Lee Smith ever was and he's waiting.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-08-2020, 02:13 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: West Greenwich, RI
Posts: 1,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
Definitely true, Billy Wagner was way better than Lee Smith ever was and he's waiting.
Wagner is an interesting case. Only 903 career IP...but about 1 fewer career WAR than Smith, who threw 1289 innings.

Not that WAR is great for relievers...but still!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-03-2020, 05:05 PM
riggs336's Avatar
riggs336 riggs336 is offline
�tis J�hns�n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 494
Default

Twenty-five years ago Bill James published a great book called The Politics of Glory (later reissued as What Ever Happened to the Hall of Fame?). The book is full of analysis of the HOF: who's in, who's not, who should and shouldn't be, etc.
Here's his list of the least qualified members. Remember it's from the mid-1990s.

C. Ray Schalk
1B. (tie) George Kelly and Frank Chance
2B. Johnny Evers
3B. Jimmy Collins
SS. Joe Tinker
LF. Chick Hafey
CF. Lloyd Waner
RF. Tommy McCarthy
SP. Jesse Haines
RP. There were only 2 in the Hall at the time so no pick

I don't agree with all of it, but it's a good list.
__________________
Baseball cards will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no baseball cards.--The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. (paraphrased)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-03-2020, 06:24 PM
JollyElm's Avatar
JollyElm JollyElm is offline
D@rrΣn Hu.ghΣs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7,331
Default

It's funny how Tinkers, Evers, and Chance are all on that list. I've always thought the 'only' reason they are in The Hall is because every baseball fan knows the saying, "Tinkers to Evers to Chance," so they each achieved more acclaim than they probably deserved?? (To be fair, I've never actually studied their stats.)
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land

https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm

Looking to trade? Here's my bucket:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706

“I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.”
Casey Stengel

Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s.

Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-03-2020, 08:15 PM
riggs336's Avatar
riggs336 riggs336 is offline
�tis J�hns�n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Austin
Posts: 494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyElm View Post
It's funny how Tinkers, Evers, and Chance are all on that list. I've always thought the 'only' reason they are in The Hall is because every baseball fan knows the saying, "Tinkers to Evers to Chance," so they each achieved more acclaim than they probably deserved?? (To be fair, I've never actually studied their stats.)
This 1910 poem by Franklin P. Adams is why that trio is in the Hall:

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double-
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
__________________
Baseball cards will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no baseball cards.--The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. (paraphrased)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-06-2020, 05:29 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 6,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Counting only players who were elected primarily for their contributions as players, elected for their talent as players (not players like Cummings who made it primarily because he was credited with inventing the curve), and elected for their performance in a league for which their is a reasonable statistical basis for objective analysis. I am also considering that many of the "worst" are labelled as such because their offensive stats are weak, but they were elected primarily for their defense.

SP: Jesse Haines
SP: Rube Marquard
SP: Catfish Hunter
SP: Jack Morris
RP: Bruce Sutter
C: Rick Ferrell
1B: George Kelly
2B: Joe Gordon
3B: Fred Lindstrom
SS: Travis Jackson
LF: Chick Hafey
CF: Lloyd Waner
RF: Ross Youngs
DH: Harold Baines


As a counter, the best player at each who is not in the Hall of Fame, not on the active ballot, and is not excluded for his cheating/gross misconduct (Jackson/Rose/Steroids):

SP: Jim McCormick
SP: Bob Caruthers
SP: Billy Pierce
SP: Kevin Brown
RP: John Franco, no real snubs, too many in.
RP: Dan Quisenberry
C: Jorge Posada, no real snubs
1B: Gil Hodges counting some points for the 68 Mets; Will Clark, Fred McGriff or Mattingly otherwise
2B: Grich or Whitaker, but suspect it will end up being Kent. No real snubs.
3B: Ken Boyer
SS: Bill Dahlen
LF: Minnie Minoso
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Bobby Abreu, no one has really been snubbed here.


On the whole, they have done well with starting pitchers. I think the best non-HOFers are easily better than the worst HOF team.


LUIS TIANT! Forgotten yet again.

At least you included Minoso, but no Oliva.

.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-16-2020, 04:31 PM
MCoxon MCoxon is offline
Mike
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 241
Default

I would agree with adding Oliva, in addition to Minoso. First Cuban (Minoso), with good stats, longevity, and a great personality; and 3 time batting-champ (Oliva) whose bad knees doomed him from a longer-lived career
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-17-2020, 10:03 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
LUIS TIANT! Forgotten yet again.

At least you included Minoso, but no Oliva.

.
Tiant has a good case, but there's quite a number of very similar pitchers at that 3-,3,500 inning 110-120 ERA+ range to pick from. The difference between Pierce and Tiant is very small; I like Pierce's 119 ERA+ better. I think a better case can be made that, value wise, the pitchers should all be 19th century guys then picking between the absent post-war starters. Oliva has surprisingly similar hitting value, adjusted for league and park, to Abreu but in a career much shorter. Both had good defense, Abreu had 400 steals. Abreu will be an unpopular pick because he's not a name nor a sentimental favorite to anyone, but the math suggests to me significantly more value, old stats and new stats alike. I think I stand by my list.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HOFers per set--Team building exercise! familytoad Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 54 09-10-2021 12:51 AM
Can you name the MLB Hall of Famers who rank the worst among HOFers in these categori byrone Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 01-10-2011 02:51 PM
2009-10 New Jersey Nets: Worst Sports Team Ever? barrysloate Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 19 12-07-2009 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:06 AM.


ebay GSB