Baseball Hall of Fame Says "No" to Slabs.

[David Atkatz]

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...iYxCsoDQN5e0hQ

[perezfan]

Would love to see this thread moved over to the main Card Forum. Would probably get more responses and a better debate over there.

[David Atkatz]

True, Mark. But the point--and the reason that it's here (see Snapolit1's "Signed Gehrig paycheck wanted" thread)--is that the same holds for anything encased in the "authenticator's" plastic; autographs, artifacts, photos, baseballs, etc.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...iYxCsoDQN5e0hQ

Super-fascinating. Can you imagine if a T206 Wagner or other Million dollar card got damaged BECAUSE of a slab?

So many lawsuits.

"Watch out for light, heat and humidity"

Apparently the same things that make beer skunked are the same things that can damage your collectibles. Mylar is the equivalent to an aluminum can for beer.

[perezfan]

Probably a dumb question, but will ask it anyway....

All the mylar products I have seen are soft (bendable) plastic. I use mylar sleeves for protecting vintage photos and tickets. But is mylar available in rigid form?

In other words... could they manufacture ball cubes and card slabs in mylar? Too expensive? Not even possible? I don't give a damn about "professional" grading or the current crop of TPAs (which seem incompetent at best/corrupt at worst).

But seems like an opportunity exists for a company that would utilize mylar in rigid form for display purposes, if nothing else.

[David Atkatz]

Mylar is pretty rigid. I use 4 mil mylar sleeves for all my autographs and artifacts. They are pretty stiff--definitely don't allow the paper inside to bend.
As you say, I have not seen mylar thick enough to make ball cubes--perhaps it would be too expensive.
I store my baseballs in acid-free cardboard boxes, with mylar lids. (As does the HoF.)

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...iYxCsoDQN5e0hQ

Very interesting reading and some good points about storing in Mylar.

Agree the conversation would be better if this was moved to the main page for more eyes to see.

Could they use Mylar to slab everything in? If so what cost.

Long term preservation makes great sense and I never knew there were museum standards

[David Atkatz]

Feel free to copy the URL, and start a thread on the card side, Jeffrey. I'm not a card collector, so I feel it would be inappropriate coming from me.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Mylar is pretty rigid. I use 4 mil mylar sleeves for all my autographs and artifacts. They are pretty stiff--definitely don't allow the paper inside to bend.
As you say, I have not seen mylar thick enough to make ball cubes--perhaps it would be too expensive.
I store my baseballs in acid-free cardboard boxes, with mylar lids. (As does the HoF.)

Nice storage solution for vintage baseballs. Oh, and by the way... pretty nice baseball you've got there as well.

[mr2686]

I know there are some that don't want to go the extra mile (time/expense) for archival storage and display, but as David wrote in a previous thread "it's our job to protect these artifacts while we own them, and before we pass them on".
I personally feel that the hobby becomes even more enjoyable thinking as a custodian rather than an owner.

[Scott Garner]

David,
I do appreciate you sharing this information with everyone on net54.
Great info to know that is based on facts, not speculation.

[Snapolit1]

All the HOF says is that the long term effects are unknown and have the potential to be problematic. So they will err in side of caution and say no.

Risk benefit calculation by them. Exactly what medical device companies and others do with plastics and composite products every day.

If there was hard science proving this PSA would be out of business tomorrow.

A very different statement than someone telling me on the board that in 10 years my check (which I don’t even have) will begin degrading.

[mr2686]

What I find odd is a company like CGC is very happy to explain what their slabs are made of for comic books (and put money in to new research to continually improve), yet all the companies on the card side like PSA etc, refuse to answer the question (ok, it's not really odd and I know the answer). With the amount of cards etc that are going in to those companies, and the prices they charge, I don't think the consumer would balk at a couple more bucks per slab for a better safer product.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A very different statement than someone telling me on the board that in 10 years my check (which I don’t even have) will begin degrading.

Ten years? You need to practice your numbers. Or your reading skills. Or both.

All you seem to be interested in is resale value. I'll stick with conservation.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

All the HOF says is that the long term effects are unknown and have the potential to be problematic. So they will err in side of caution and say no.

Risk benefit calculation by them. Exactly what medical device companies and others do with plastics and composite products every day.

If there was hard science proving this PSA would be out of business tomorrow.

A very different statement than someone telling me on the board that in 10 years my check (which I don’t even have) will begin degrading.

Agreed. That’s all the article really tells us: they don’t know so they will err on the side of caution. Which is what I will do by leaving them slabbed because they are worth a ton more and are authentic.

As far as a study, there are plenty of 20 year old PSA slabs where the card looks just fine. I would be curious as to any findings.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Agreed. That’s all the article really tells us: they don’t know so they will err on the side of caution. Which is what I will do by leaving them slabbed because they are worth a ton more and are authentic.

You're "erring on the side of caution," as well?

The HoF says "I'm gonna remove the cards from the slabs because there's a chance--based on the known behavior of some plastics--that chemicals from the plastic will leach into the paper. Better to be safe than sorry."

Sounds pretty cautious.

You say "I'm gonna leave the cards in the slabs because "they are worth a ton more."

Sounds more mercenary than anything else.

You also say a reason for leaving the cards in the slabs is that, that way, "they are authentic." What? If a card is removed does it cease being authentic?

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You're "erring on the side of caution," as well?

The HoF says "I'm gonna remove the cards from the slabs because there's a chance--based on the known behavior of some plastics--that chemicals from the plastic will leach into the paper. Better to be safe than sorry."

Sounds pretty cautious.

You say "I'm gonna leave the cards in the slabs because "they are worth a ton more."

Sounds more mercenary than anything else.

You also say a reason for leaving the cards in the slabs is that, that way, "they are authentic." What? If a card is removed does it cease being authentic?

No no no, I assumed a lot was implied with what I said, but it's the internet/txt so it's not and that's my fault.

Slabs are worth more, that's just a simple fact and the main reason why I will keep mine slabbed. That's me erring on the side of caution for my investment.

And no, I'm not saying that unslabbed cards are not authentic, I'm saying that with slabbed cards you are getting a guarantee that they are authentic (I realize this isn't foolproof either). There are a large swath of collectors that will not buy an unslabbed card because of the risk (trimmed, fake, etc), and while I'm not one of them, I do buy the vast majority of my cards already slabbed and tend to stay away from raw cards, mainly so I won't have to do it myself because inevitably I will.

[David Atkatz]

What you say is true, except for the "guarantee." Collector's seem to have agreed that they will accept what the slab label says as the gospel. And they are willing to pay for that peace of mind. Thus it really doesn't matter whether the label is accurate or not. The authenticator's have created the accepted "truth."
But if the label is ever proved wrong), it's just too bad for the owner. There is no guarantee, and no making up for the value lost.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

What you say is true, except for the "guarantee." Collector's seem to have agreed that they will accept what the slab label says as the gospel. And they are willing to pay for that peace of mind. Thus it really doesn't matter whether the label is accurate or not. The authenticator's have created the accepted "truth."
But if the label is ever proved wrong), it's just too bad for the owner. There is no guarantee, and no making up for the value lost.

Agreed, which is why I said that the guarantee isn't foolproof. If you have a good eye and have been in the hobby for a long time you can use the slab in conjunction with what you know and feel pretty confident in your purchase. I mainly rely on the slab to help me with trimmed cards as I can assume all day, but I'm not great at being able to tell a really good trim job. I also like slabs, they are aesthetically pleasing to me.

I like buying PSA 1's of higher end cards, but focus on getting nicely centered copies with defects that I am ok with. The slab gives me the peace of mind that, yeah the card is nowhere near perfect, but it presents well and is authentic. I liken slabs to the second opinion of a doctor, I was the first doctor, and if the second doctor likes it then I feel much better about the purchase. Can both doctors be wrong, sure, but getting a second set of eyes on something is invaluable.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

All the HOF says is that the long term effects are unknown and have the potential to be problematic. So they will err in side of caution and say no.

Risk benefit calculation by them. Exactly what medical device companies and others do with plastics and composite products every day.

If there was hard science proving this PSA would be out of business tomorrow.

A very different statement than someone telling me on the board that in 10 years my check (which I don’t even have) will begin degrading.

That check began degrading when the paper was made, before it even became a check. What Archival storage to high standards does is delay the inevitable as long as possible. In the best cases, as long as possible means a very long time.
Even without stuff like Mylar some things can last a long time, it's just less likely. Like King Tuts stuff, mostly preserved in good condition for thousands of years. Assuming the check was high rag content paper and not particularly acidic it's something you probably won't have to worry about.

It's also true that some things even stored up to standards - like many books from the 1890s-1920's- degrade to the point of being unsaveable in a fairly short time. Once the wood fibers in the paper begin creating acid it's just a matter of time.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by steve B

That check began degrading when the paper was made, before it even became a check. What Archival storage to high standards does is delay the inevitable as long as possible. In the best cases, as long as possible means a very long time.
Even without stuff like Mylar some things can last a long time, it's just less likely. Like King Tuts stuff, mostly preserved in good condition for thousands of years. Assuming the check was high rag content paper and not particularly acidic it's something you probably won't have to worry about.

It's also true that some things even stored up to standards - like many books from the 1890s-1920's- degrade to the point of being unsaveable in a fairly short time. Once the wood fibers in the paper begin creating acid it's just a matter of time.

True.
Ancient Egyptian material has lasted because it was stored at very low humidity, and in total darkness. It was also not in contact with other objects that could cause them to deteriorate.
Old books deteriorate because of the acid in wood pulp paper. (Rag paper has far, far, less acid, and some none at all.) In order to preserve those books, they must be deacidified.
Mylar keeps its contents safe from environmental hazards, and contact with dangerous things--like acidic wood pulp paper. It is also stable--chemicals do not leach out of mylar, as they do with other plastics.
What is worrisome about slabs is that they are not made of long-term stable plastic.