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  #7201  
Old 02-09-2023, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
So is this an “Epstein”?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...forty-22850599

This one has had a recurring case of split-spine syndrome throughout the years.
duplicate …

Last edited by thetahat; 02-09-2023 at 07:29 PM.
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  #7202  
Old 02-09-2023, 07:20 PM
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Then WGN was cheap, too. I have seen this particular pennant at least 3 times with a pieced-together or "split" spine.
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  #7203  
Old 02-09-2023, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Greg posted as I was floundering and fat-fingering on my cell screen. So it IS a condition flaw. Epstein was apparently a cheapskate who underpaid his taxes and couldn’t even waste 2” of “spine material” to make it uninterrupted.

Shame on you, Epstein!
Here's an alleged Epstein split spine for you. Interesting technique on this one. They didn't worry about smooth flush edges. They just overlaid the pointy longer piece over the shorter one and stitched away.
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  #7204  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bocca001 View Post

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.
You're spot on for the time frame of the lower kicker pennant. Pretty easy to differentiate the ones from the 1940s from the ones from the 1960s, such as the Raiders you mention. The 1940s version have little blob flags and not much detail to the stadium. Also, many of the teams you find are defunct and existed for a very short time in the 40s or early 50s. Whereas the 60s version has proper flags and fans in the stands (Rams pennant below).
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File Type: jpg Dodgers Kicker.jpg (134.6 KB, 215 views)
File Type: jpg NY Yanks Kicker.jpg (127.7 KB, 220 views)
File Type: jpg Yanks Kicker.jpg (138.2 KB, 216 views)
File Type: jpg Rams Kicker.jpg (140.4 KB, 218 views)
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  #7205  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:20 PM
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I believe these three to be from the same company, one that we have yet to identify.
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File Type: jpg 94AB8A14-B309-40AA-9B21-0698525FB5C9.jpg (71.6 KB, 215 views)
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  #7206  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:28 PM
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Epstein seems to provide a major clue in solving the mystery of the stiff arm (Heisman) pennants but I'm a little dubious on the idea that they were the only ones making them. As Kyle said, they used very generic artwork but there is significant variation in these pennants. It's possible their "art work" evolved over the years (with the Wilburforce below likely their first ever attempt at depicting a football player) but some of the differentiation seems very arbitrary...like something a competitor might add to avoid using a direct copy. Also interesting to note, the Florida State pennant below is 3/4 size which is very atypical for these. The variations below were all found in about 5 minutes of searching through my website. I'm sure I could find more.
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File Type: jpg Wilberforce.jpg (123.8 KB, 216 views)
File Type: jpg OK Stiff.jpg (129.1 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg FSU Stiff.jpg (124.0 KB, 221 views)
File Type: jpg Rams.jpg (154.7 KB, 221 views)
File Type: jpg Giants Stiff.jpg (139.4 KB, 222 views)
File Type: jpg Giants Stiff 2.jpg (124.2 KB, 218 views)
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  #7207  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:32 PM
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That blue NY Giants is bad, in a funny way.

Does the ad that Oooribay posted suggest that these (at least some) were made by AMCO Emblem? An Ohio State runner pennant is right in the ad (although the stiff arm is going in the opposite direction).

Last edited by bocca001; 02-09-2023 at 08:34 PM.
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  #7208  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:37 PM
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I know this has been mentioned before….but we gotta do a pennant book!

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky’s pinback book. For me, it’s the gold standard. I’m very much a “pin guy,” too, and Paul’s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven’t contributed all that much to the pennant research…but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread.

I highly value all of you….my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!
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  #7209  
Old 02-09-2023, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fballguy View Post
Epstein seems to provide a major clue in solving the mystery of the stiff arm (Heisman) pennants but I'm a little dubious on the idea that they were the only ones making them. As Kyle said, they used very generic artwork but there is significant variation in these pennants. It's possible their "art work" evolved over the years (with the Wilburforce below likely their first ever attempt at depicting a football player) but some of the differentiation seems very arbitrary...like something a competitor might add to avoid using a direct copy. Also interesting to note, the Florida State pennant below is 3/4 size which is very atypical for these. The variations below were all found in about 5 minutes of searching through my website. I'm sure I could find more.
Hey, Rob - did you notice in the print ad I posted this afternoon that the AMCO FB player is stiff arming in the other direction? How common or uncommon is that?
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  #7210  
Old 02-09-2023, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
Hey, Rob - did you notice in the print ad I posted this afternoon that the AMCO FB player is stiff arming in the other direction? How common or uncommon is that?
Yes…Great find Rob. I’d say not common at all. The only thing that comes to mind is this style which is pretty rare and seemed to focus on a few mid west colleges…Tulsa, Kansas, etc.
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  #7211  
Old 02-10-2023, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bocca001 View Post
That blue NY Giants is bad, in a funny way.

Does the ad that Oooribay posted suggest that these (at least some) were made by AMCO Emblem? An Ohio State runner pennant is right in the ad (although the stiff arm is going in the opposite direction).
That definitely caught my eye initially but why would they show it wrong in the ad? Also, the ad is for mini pennants (11"). I've never seen a stiff arm mini. The picture of the Tulsa pennant I shared does resemble the pennant in the ad, however is full size and I'd guess from the 1960s (though sans helmet) and not 1938.

And is that 3.5 cents per pennant? Even for a mini, that's a bargain.
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  #7212  
Old 02-10-2023, 08:27 AM
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And is that 3.5 cents per pennant? Even for a mini, that's a bargain.
The “largest, bushiest, genuine fur fox tails” were going for a nickel.
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  #7213  
Old 02-10-2023, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by UKCardGuy View Post
Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.
Gary, I added a page to my Sandy Koufax memorabilia website with photos of my Dodger pennants. There may be 1 or 2 you don't have yet in your catalog. LMK if you need better pictures of any.

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  #7214  
Old 02-10-2023, 09:02 AM
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As usual, I may be somewhat confused...

My first sliding runner pic is definitely an Epstein. Second pic as well? And isn't the 3rd, some other maker entirely?
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  #7215  
Old 02-10-2023, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
As usual, I may be somewhat confused...

My first sliding runner pic is definitely an Epstein. Second pic as well? And isn't the 3rd, some other maker entirely?
Yes, yes, probably no

My guess is that you will see a distinct stitch on the back of the bottom pennant compared to the other two. Also the middle pennant has the nearly identical banner graphic as the Dodgers pennant pictured above

Last edited by thetahat; 02-10-2023 at 09:11 AM.
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  #7216  
Old 02-10-2023, 01:53 PM
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Yes, yes, probably no
So, you mean yes, Epstein; yes, Epstein and probably not Epstein? I only ask because I had asked if the third was a different maker and you said “probably no.”
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  #7217  
Old 02-10-2023, 01:58 PM
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I'm still thinking they may all be AMCO. As the ad says, they had a "painted pennant division." Sounds impressive and high volume. Epstein, on the other hand, had to share building space. On the other other hand, the sewn in Epstein label seems to suggest that Epstein was the maker (as opposed to middleman).

I believe that there are a few baseball pennants with an AMCO mark, correct? Maybe Dodgers and Yankees?
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  #7218  
Old 02-10-2023, 02:29 PM
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So, you mean yes, Epstein; yes, Epstein and probably not Epstein? I only ask because I had asked if the third was a different maker and you said “probably no.”
My bad. I think the top two are definitely the same maker - Epstein - and the third is almost definitely a different maker.

Last edited by thetahat; 02-10-2023 at 02:31 PM.
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  #7219  
Old 02-10-2023, 03:19 PM
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Top has all the characteristics of WGN. Tassels, strip, spray painting (or whatever).

Bottom … is Epstein. Almost certain. Almost
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  #7220  
Old 02-10-2023, 08:53 PM
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Top has all the characteristics of WGN. Tassels, strip, spray painting (or whatever).

Bottom … is Epstein. Almost certain. Almost
Wait….what? Anyone (at least I) would think those were the same maker.
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  #7221  
Old 02-10-2023, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
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Finding some info about Epstein Novelty

https://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.c...65-bowery.html



It also looks like the owner of Epstein Novelty got into some trouble from tax evasion in the 1950s.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case...313.11100.html
Wait, can we go back to Mr. Epstein's alleged legal troubles?

As I read this, the defendant/petitioner/appellant was a guy called William B. Stayback--not Epstein. Mr. Stayback was convicted for filing false tax returns for his business, which apparently functioned under a multitude of different names; none of which were called Epstein Novelty Co.

It looks like Stayback did business with Epstein; perhaps he supplied them with raw materials for the latter's production needs. It was income from these sales to Epstein (and others) that this Stayback fellow failed to report as income; and, apparently, went to prison for....

I just want to defend my man Epstein from any further libel by this thread, is all

He's still guilty of being a tightwad. Greg has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt.
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  #7222  
Old 02-11-2023, 01:23 AM
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So it IS a condition flaw. Epstein was apparently a cheapskate who underpaid his taxes and couldn’t even waste 2” of “spine material” to make it uninterrupted.

Shame on you, Epstein!
I retract my judgemental statement, and owe the great Epstein an apology. Epstein was a mensch!
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  #7223  
Old 02-11-2023, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bocca001 View Post
Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).
You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

All three series involved 26" long, 3/4 size pennants. More importantly, all were made by the same company. Further, the "insert ballpark name" series represented a really cutting edge pennant for its day. Look at how many colors this maker used! Four colors? Two pairs of tassels? Who else was making pennants that nice by 1950? Who else (save maybe Epstein) had this big of market share by 1950? That distinctive serif letter font--who else relied on that as heavily as Trench throughout the 1940s and 50s?

There really isn't anyone else ... is there?

Still not convinced? Look at these two Eagles pennants (courtesy of fballguy's / feltfootball.com).... There's your left footed punter; and, underneath him there's a companion pennant from the same maker bearing yet another graphic associated with Trench.

Look, it may not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but, for me, all signs point to Buffalo, NY on this one. Which means, all three of the pennants Greg identified in post #7205, with that kooky letter font, are also, in my opinion, by Trench.

This shouldn't surprise us: they were a really big, successful company.
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-02-10 233955.jpg (37.1 KB, 196 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-02-10 235820.jpg (191.7 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-02-11 000555.jpg (108.1 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-02-11 000848.jpg (122.6 KB, 202 views)
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  #7224  
Old 02-11-2023, 05:11 AM
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Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?
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  #7225  
Old 02-11-2023, 05:42 AM
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Found a picture of this Ohio State pennant. Definitely a lot closer to the one depicted in Rob's ad. This one is full size however.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:02 AM
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I don't think I have ever seen any of the runner style pennants (using any runner graphic.... of the many out there) in an 11.5 inch size. Have you? Makes that ad rather strange.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:21 AM
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I don't think I have ever seen any of the runner style pennants (using any runner graphic.... of the many out there) in an 11.5 inch size. Have you? Makes that ad rather strange.
Never. Maybe they were made of disappearing felt.
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  #7228  
Old 02-11-2023, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domer05 View Post
You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....
Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I’ve asked, but I’ll ask again….do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the “moon-lit batter”?
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  #7229  
Old 02-11-2023, 09:48 AM
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Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.
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  #7230  
Old 02-11-2023, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
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Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.
I dunno, those top two look similar to me.... Same serif letter font used. Both have tassels. Both are polychromatic. Obviously, they're different styles/sizes, but there's nothing inconsistent about them. (I'm not convinced that stitching characteristics are a reliable indicator of a pennant's origin.)

I think by 1950 the "insert ballpark name" series was rather tired and being phased out. It had enjoyed a good run. Scroll pennants were the new fad, and Trench (along with others) went all-in on them. Same with full size pennants. These two 1950 pennants simply illustrate that transition point, for me.

Why wouldn't Trench (or whoever you think made these) make more than one NL champs pennant for a team? This enabled them to offer both a 3/4 and a full size pennant, presumably at different prices. That makes perfect business sense to me.

Regarding materials used, we also know that Trench was an innovative company, and they certainly experimented with new production techniques and materials throughout the 1950s. Sometimes they used 100% wool felt; mostly they used a wool/rayon blend; and they even tried that flannel-like cloth material for a time, too. So, for me, if the materials truly differed, this may explain why.

I agree that the bottom one is by Trench. The third one, however, I believe is by AMCO. (I also believe that AMCO is the maker of the double-wide scroll pennant you referenced. I'll have more to say about that later on Pennant Fever when I cover them.)
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Last edited by Domer05; 02-11-2023 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 02-11-2023, 10:39 AM
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Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.
FWIW, I love that bottom St. Louis Browns pennant!
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Old 02-11-2023, 10:47 AM
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Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I’ve asked, but I’ll ask again….do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the “moon-lit batter”?
Probably?? That's a tough one. Sure, it's the same batter artwork; but super-imposed on a rendering of Candlestick? And, those colors?? Doesn't look like anything else Trench did around 1962 but ... who knows?

1962 was the the year Tom Storm joined his father at Trench and assumed a role in running the company. He told me he was all about trying new production methods aimed at lowering their costs ... some that worked ... others that failed.

If Trench made this, it could have been one of their little experiments....

...Or, the artwork was just stolen by a rival maker and inserted into a new design?
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Old 02-11-2023, 10:54 AM
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Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?
Marc: AMCO's legal/corporate name was "AMCO Athletic Apparel Corp." as of 1947. I'm still researching them, but I can tell you that pennants were only a portion of their business. They specialized in apparel, as their name suggests, namely baseball and football uniforms. Hence the "painted pennant division" verbiage referenced on their 1938 ad.

They must've put that in there because they wanted their customers to know they made more than uniforms?
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Old 02-11-2023, 12:58 PM
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1954 Indians … top three are undeniably Trench. (They made 3-4 more designs too.)

The fourth? Seems to me same maker as the “insert stadium” 1950 Phillies Whiz Kids and Browns below it; identical block letter font, tassels, etc.They also are distinguished by a rough screen print, that Domer identified as a product of the screen itself. I have no obvious Trenches that look/feel like this but all of mine with the same font have it.
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Old 02-11-2023, 01:07 PM
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These appear to be Epstein football pennants sans runner
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Old 02-11-2023, 02:54 PM
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I know this has been mentioned before….but we gotta do a pennant book!

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky’s pinback book. For me, it’s the gold standard. I’m very much a “pin guy,” too, and Paul’s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven’t contributed all that much to the pennant research…but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread.

I highly value all of you….my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!

Agreed. I started a sort of catalog of the info in this thread. You can get is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nAV...usp=share_link

It's certainly not a book but a lot of the info is there.

I now have 1,614 pennants (and variations) detailed. I've started to add links to known auctions/sales too.

And here's a few new arrivals this week The Red Sox is a 1949 phantom AL Champions pennant. Any ideas about who made it?
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Old 02-11-2023, 04:17 PM
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Cool pennants, Gary, especially the Colts. See post 7205 above for pennants similar to the Red Sox.

Last edited by thetahat; 02-11-2023 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 02-11-2023, 04:29 PM
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Cool pennants, Gary, especially the Colts.
Funny thing is, they were the Colt 45’s, not the Colts 45. Those quality control issues tickle me.
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Old 02-13-2023, 09:51 AM
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In other news my ugly Phillies pennant just had an ugly baby. 0.25 ounces, 8 inches. The father is believed to be the gentleman below.
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Old 02-13-2023, 10:07 AM
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I’ll add that in fairness to Ad Flag (whom I **** on quite a bit) I no longer think this monstrosity was made by them. It appears to be WGN. Which saddens me. Sex predator bum, however, is 100% AF.

Last edited by thetahat; 02-13-2023 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 02-13-2023, 11:33 AM
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Are you sure Greg that it was made by WGN? Mine says ADFLAG.
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Old 02-13-2023, 01:20 PM
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Are you sure Greg that it was made by WGN? Mine says ADFLAG.
The Phillies? Interesting. I stand corrected. Can you post a pic?
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Old 02-13-2023, 05:58 PM
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Just found
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Old 02-14-2023, 07:29 AM
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Just found
Very nice! I don’t keep track of Indians pennants but that style seems pretty unique. Get your iron warmed up.
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Old 02-14-2023, 03:27 PM
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Cool Indians pennant!

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Old 02-14-2023, 04:37 PM
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Cool Indians pennant!
Can you add any insight, Professor?
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Old 02-14-2023, 05:57 PM
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I've come across another variant of this pennant in red and yellow before. I'd love to know more about it.
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Old 02-14-2023, 06:01 PM
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Always liked that Indians pennant. Usually don’t have the feather still attached. Good colors too
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Old 02-15-2023, 03:39 PM
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The Phillies? Interesting. I stand corrected. Can you post a pic?
No. I was referring to the Sex Predator Brooklyn felt.
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Old 02-15-2023, 04:25 PM
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No. I was referring to the Sex Predator Brooklyn felt.
Oh that’s definitely Ad Flag. Phillies is WGN.
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