Team with the most borderline Hall of Famers

[cgjackson222]

The Yankees have a LOT of really great players that didn't make the Hall of Fame. Below are some (in no particular order):

1) Graig Nettles (6x All Star, 2x World Series, 2x Gold Glove, 68 bWAR)
2) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
3) Ron Guidry (4x All Star, Cy Young, 2x ERA Title, 47.8 bWAR)
4) Thurman Munson (ROY, 7x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 46.1 bWAR)
5) Willie Randolph (6x All Star, World Series, Silver Slugger, 65.9 bWAR)
6) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
7) Don Mattingly (6x All Star, MVP, Batting Title, 9 Gold Gloves, 42.4 bWAR)
8) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
9) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
10) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
11) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5 World Series, 40.6 bWAR)
12) Tommy Henrich (5x All Star, 6x World Series, 39.6 bWAR)
13) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
14) Elston Howard (12x All Star, MVP, 2x Gold Glove, 4 World Series, 27 bWAR)
15) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
16) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)

And of course A-Rod and Andy Pettitte who aren't in because of roids.

Does any other team have as many?

[bblair_2002]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

The Yankees have a LOT of really great players that didn't make the Hall of Fame. Below are some (in no particular order):

1) Graig Nettles (6x All Star, 2x World Series, 2x Gold Glove, 68 bWAR)
2) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
3) Ron Guidry (4x All Star, Cy Young, 2x ERA Title, 47.8 bWAR)
4) Thurman Munson (ROY, 7x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 46.1 bWAR)
5) Willie Randolph (6x All Star, World Series, Silver Slugger, 65.9 bWAR)
6) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
7) Don Mattingly (6x All Star, MVP, Batting Title, 9 Gold Gloves, 42.4 bWAR)
8) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
9) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
10) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
11) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5 World Series, 40.6 bWAR)
12) Tommy Henrich (5x All Star, 6x World Series, 39.6 bWAR)
13) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
14) Elston Howard (12x All Star, MVP, 2x Gold Glove, 4 World Series, 27 bWAR)
15) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
16) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)

And of course A-Rod and Andy Pettitte who aren't in because of roids.

Does any other team have as many?

I'm not a Yankees fan,yet it's always bothered me that Pettitte,Jeter,Posada and Rivera were known as the Core Four,yet Bernie Williams was excluded from that group.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bblair_2002

I'm not a Yankees fan,yet it's always bothered me that Pettitte,Jeter,Posada and Rivera were known as the Core Four,yet Bernie Williams was excluded from that group.

I'm a Yankees fan...and it's always bothered me to.

63.2 Offensive War is pretty impressive. His defensive metrics kill him though. Odd for a guy with 4 Gold Gloves.

Watching him everyday, his arm was subpar. He covered a lot of ground in Centerfield earlier in his career, but I suspect he began to lose some of his vision, and wasn't tracking balls well for the 2nd half of his career, and more.

I know he got laser surgery on his eyes at one point, and I think it took him awhile to adjust to it. Eventually it helped him at the plate, but I suspect it threw off a bit of his depth perception playing the outfield.

Bernie was also a horrible base stealer (a good base runner, but a horrible base stealer), so maybe he was just bad at timing his jumps.

This is all hypothetical of course, from somebody who went from glasses, to contact lenses, to laser surgery myself. I remember having a horrible time tracking balls when I popped in the contact lenses. Had to ditch them mid-game a few times to go back to my glasses. Didn't have much experience playing ball after my laser surgery to make a proper comparison though.

[packs]

Bernie was the man. I don't know that he's a HOFer but in my opinion he's one of the best players not in the Hall. It's criminal he only lasted two ballots.

[Carter08]

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn’t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn’t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

not sure if they would have the most but I agree it seems anyone that was HOF caliber they seemed to trade away

The Yankees and their history probably do have the most however, i still feel most on the list are not worthy of the hall or border line at best.

Regardless of the bar being lowered by some other players that also should not have gotten in

[Mike D.]

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)


I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)


I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Fun list, and I agree the Yankees list is likely among the longest.

Off the top of my head, a few Red Sox:

1. Dwight Evans (3x AS, 8x GG 67.2 WAR)
2. Luis Tiant (229-172, 3.30 ERA 66.1 WAR) - also played for NYY
3. Dustin Pedroia (ROY, MVP, 4 x AS/GG 51.9 WAR)
4. Reggie Smith (7x AS, GG 64.5 WAR)


I'm guessing steroid guys like Clemens (another guy who also played for NYY) and Manny don't count.

I think Dwight Evans and Tiant belong in the HOF.
Reggie Smith is close.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

Yeah, based on year's in Boston, he was well on his way. His 30's weren't nearly as kind, with only about half the WAR of his 20's.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I think Dwight Evans and Tiant belong in the HOF.
Reggie Smith is close.

I'm really interested to see how 2nd basemen are considered going forward. Kent just aged off the ballot. Kinsler's WAR is similar to Pedroia's but with less hardware. Utley debuts on the ballot next year.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

I would also maybe add Smokey Joe Wood as borderline HOFer for Boston.

He had a very short career, with only 11 years in the League, but he had some big numbers. He was an absurd 34-5 in 1912 and he ranks 15th all-time in both career winning % (.6724) as well as ERA+ (146) (including Negro League leaders). He actually has a better career ERA+ than Clemens, who is right behind with 143.

[packs]

The Angels have had a decent crop of Hall of Very Good guys too:

- Jim Edmonds
- Chuck Finley
- Tim Salmon
- Bobby Grich
- Garret Anderson

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

The Angels have had a decent crop of Hall of Very Good guys too:

- Jim Edmonds
- Chuck Finley
- Tim Salmon
- Bobby Grich
- Garret Anderson

Maybe not quite "borderline", but Devon White, Frank Tanana and Jim Fregosi were the 1st 3 to pop into my head for the Angels, that you don't already have on your list.

[packs]

Solid additions. If he were to go into the Hall I don't think Tori Hunter would go in as an Angel but he was also in the Very Good tier.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I'm really interested to see how 2nd basemen are considered going forward. Kent just aged off the ballot. Kinsler's WAR is similar to Pedroia's but with less hardware. Utley debuts on the ballot next year.

What a shame to play a position that no one cares about. I don't have feelings for Kinsler, but Pedroia and Utley were important contibutors for contenders and WS teams.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[packs]

Originally Posted by todeen

What a shame to play a position that no one cares about. I don't have feelings for Kinsler, but Pedroia and Utley were important contibutors for contenders and WS teams.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

I think Kent would be in if not for the suspicions surrounding him re: PEDS.

Utley has a case but ultimately I don't think he's a HOFer. He had a decent bat but was never otherworldly. I don't see any cases to be made for Pedroia or Kinsler.

It's a shame Cano cheated because he certainly had the bat for Hall otherwise.

[Mike D.]

When there are 19 second basemen in the Hall of Fame and their ranks include Joe Gordon, Bid McPhee, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Johnny Evers, Tony Lazzeri, and Red Schoendienst, you gotta at least give Kent, Kinsler, Pedroia, and Utley a closer look.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

You can probably add Fred Lynn to that list to. Had a relatively long career, but injuries robbed him of a lot of stats. You would have thought he was going to be a lock by his mid-twenties.

Nomar.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nomar.

Yup, thought of him to. Figured I'd save him for someone else. Unfortunately, outside of one comeback type season, he was done by 30.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Tigers have a decent selection of borderline guys

Whitaker
Lolich
Darrell Evans
Kirk Gibson
Bill Freehan
Harvey Kuenn
Bill Madlock (he bounced around so much I don't know what team you'd say he belongs to)
Bobby Veach
Tommy Bridges
Norm Cash
Lance Parrish
Virgil Trucks
Cecil Fielder
George Mullin
Rocky Colavito
Rudy York
Hooks Dauss
Willie Horton
Chet Lemon (actually one of the highest WAR's on this list)

Only a couple of these guys merit super serious consideration but there's an awful lot of them who measure up to the lower end of the Hall.

[Mike D.]

Appropriate that the mention of Whitaker came after talk of HOF 2nd Basemen. Honestly it's hard to argue Whitaker is "borderline"...the fact that he's not in the Hall of Fame is downright bewildering.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

Solid additions. If he were to go into the Hall I don't think Tori Hunter would go in as an Angel but he was also in the Very Good tier.

I also have a soft spot for Don Baylor, who had a very interesting career to me. Would anybody have guessed/remembered that the big guy had 52 Stolen Bases the one season he played for the A's, just before he signed with the Angels.

He was also part of the trade that sent Reggie Jackson to the Orioles for one season, before Free Agency kicked in for both of them.

Of course he also won an MVP and had a magnet installed in his left bicep, that seemed to attract an alarming number of baseballs into committing suicide by Baylor, once it left a pitchers hands.

I'll conveniently forget his atrocious defensive analytics, when he wasn't DH'ing.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

The Yankees have a LOT of really great players that didn't make the Hall of Fame. Below are some (in no particular order):

1) Graig Nettles (6x All Star, 2x World Series, 2x Gold Glove, 68 bWAR)
2) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
3) Ron Guidry (4x All Star, Cy Young, 2x ERA Title, 47.8 bWAR)
4) Thurman Munson (ROY, 7x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 46.1 bWAR)
5) Willie Randolph (6x All Star, World Series, Silver Slugger, 65.9 bWAR)
6) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
7) Don Mattingly (6x All Star, MVP, Batting Title, 9 Gold Gloves, 42.4 bWAR)
8) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
9) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
10) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
11) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5 World Series, 40.6 bWAR)
12) Tommy Henrich (5x All Star, 6x World Series, 39.6 bWAR)
13) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
14) Elston Howard (12x All Star, MVP, 2x Gold Glove, 4 World Series, 27 bWAR)
15) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
16) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)

And of course A-Rod and Andy Pettitte who aren't in because of roids.

Does any other team have as many?

The Yankees wouldn't have some many on the outside looking in if they had a Frankie Frisch type voting on the veterans committee, etc.

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LA with Wills, Willie Davis, Garvey, Cey, Hersheiser, probably many others.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Tigers have a decent selection of borderline guys

Whitaker
Lolich
Darrell Evans
Kirk Gibson
Bill Freehan
Harvey Kuenn
Bill Madlock (he bounced around so much I don't know what team you'd say he belongs to)
Bobby Veach
Tommy Bridges
Norm Cash
Lance Parrish
Virgil Trucks
Cecil Fielder
George Mullin
Rocky Colavito
Rudy York
Hooks Dauss
Willie Horton
Chet Lemon (actually one of the highest WAR's on this list)

Only a couple of these guys merit super serious consideration but there's an awful lot of them who measure up to the lower end of the Hall.

This is a really good list with some very solid players.

There are a lot of borderline pitchers with Lolich, Mullin, Trucks and Dauss. I would add Dizzy Trout. Trout had one of the best pitching seasons ever in 1944 when he led the League in ERA (2.12) and Shutouts (7) and put up almost 50 bWAR for his career.

Whitaker definitely belongs.

Norm Cash was a 5x All Star, and Tommy Bridges a 6x All Star. Both put up over 50 bWAR.

Darrell Evans had 414 HRs and almost 60 bWAR.

Bill Freehan was an 11x All Star.

A really great list. I think Detroit might have just as many borderline guys as they Yankees.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speaking of borderline Tigers, Jack Morris.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I also have a soft spot for Don Baylor, who had a very interesting career to me. Would anybody have guessed/remembered that the big guy had 52 Stolen Bases the one season he played for the A's, just before he signed with the Angels.

He was also part of the trade that sent Reggie Jackson to the Orioles for one season, before Free Agency kicked in for both of them.

Of course he also won an MVP and had a magnet installed in his left bicep, that seemed to attract an alarming number of baseballs into committing suicide by Baylor, once it left a pitchers hands.

I'll conveniently forget his atrocious defensive analytics, when he wasn't DH'ing.

In 1987,when the Twins were coming down the stretch, they traded for Baylor. He hit .286 the rest of the way, then .400 in the ALCS, and .385 in the World Series. I think that only Twins fans remember how Baylor saved the Series. In Game 6, the Twins were down 5-2 in the bottom of the 5th, but Baylor launched a 3-run home run to get them back in it, and Hrbek's grand slam the next inning sent it to Game 7.

I remember when the trade was made, one of Baylor's teammates on the Red Sox predicted he'd get some big hits for the Twins. No kidding.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

This is a really good list with some very solid players.

There are a lot of borderline pitchers with Lolich, Mullin, Trucks and Dauss. I would add Dizzy Trout. Trout had one of the best pitching seasons ever in 1944 when he led the League in ERA (2.12) and Shutouts (7) and put up almost 50 bWAR for his career.

Whitaker definitely belongs.

Norm Cash was a 5x All Star, and Tommy Bridges a 6x All Star. Both put up over 50 bWAR.

Darrell Evans had 414 HRs and almost 60 bWAR.

Bill Freehan was an 11x All Star.

A really great list. I think Detroit might have just as many borderline guys as they Yankees.

Might as well add Fred Lynn, Magglio Ordonez and Juan Gonzalez

[TheBig6]

Lance Berkman might get in one day.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I remember when the trade was made, one of Baylor's teammates on the Red Sox predicted he'd get some big hits for the Twins. No kidding.

Not surprising a teammate said that. Baylor hit a key HR in the 1986 ALCS on his way to hitting .346/.469/.577 in that series (sadly, the WS didn't go nearly as well for Baylor OR the Sox).

[Shoeless Moe]

The Reds:

Pete Rose
Dave Concepcion
George Foster
Ken Griffey
Dave Parker
Eric Davis (just kidn, but he was great for a few years)
Jose "Blame it on" Rijo (same)
John Franco (but would go in as a Met)
Mario Soto
Lee May
Vida Pinson
Ted Kluszewski
Johnny Vander Meer
Bucky Walters
Heinie Groh
Dummy Hoy

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

The Reds:

Pete Rose
Dave Concepcion
George Foster
Ken Griffey
Dave Parker
Eric Davis (just kidn, but he was great for a few years)
Jose "Blame it on" Rijo (same)
John Franco (but would go in as a Met)
Mario Soto
Lee May
Vida Pinson
Ted Kluszewski
Johnny Vander Meer
Bucky Walters
Heinie Groh
Dummy Hoy

You could field a pretty solid team with Reds that didn’t make the Hall:
1B: Ted Kluszewski
2B: Pete Rose (could put him almost anywhere)
SS: Dave Concepcion
3B: Heinie Groh
LF: George Foster
CF: Vada Pinson
RF: Dave Parker
C: Smoky Burgess?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mets probably have the most players that should have made the hall of fame if they didn’t get in their own way. Probably traded away the most hall of famers too. Sigh.

Mets still have a nice group of borderline HOFers.
Many probably would go in as a member of another team, but all have played significant time with the Mets.

1) Keith Hernandez (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, Batting Title, 60.3 bWAR)
2) David Wright (7x All Star, 49.2 bWAR)
3) Carlos Delgado (2x All Star, ML POY, 44.4 bWAR)
4) Carlos Beltran (ROY, 9x All Star, Word Series, 70.1 bWAR)
5) Robin Ventura (2x All Star, 56.1 bWAR)
6) John Olerud (2x All Star, 2 World Series, Battling Title, 58.2 bWAR)
7) Darryl Strawberry (ROY, 8x All Star, 3 World Series, 42.2 bWAR)
8) George Foster (5x All Star, MVP, 2 World Series, 44.1 bWAR)
9) Jeff Kent (5x All Star, MVP, 55.4 bWAR)
10) Curtis Granderson (3x All Star, 47.2 bWAR)
11) David Cone (5x All Star, Cy Young, 5 World Series, Perfect Game, 62.3 bWAR)
12) Dwight Gooden (ROY, 4x All Star, 2 World Series, triple crown, 53 bWAR)
13) Jerry Koosman (2x All Star, World Series, 53.6 bWAR)
14) Johan Santana (4x All Star, 2x Cy Young, Triple Crown, 3x ERA Title, 51.7 bWAR)
15) Bartolo Colon (4x All Star, Cy Young, 46.2 bWAR)
16) Billy Wagner (7x All Star, Rolaids Reliever, 422 Saves, 187 ERA+)
17) John Franco (4x All Star, 2x Rolaids Reliever, 424 saves, 138 ERA+)

I personally think Hernandez, Cone and maybe Kent have strong cases for the Hall.
I think Beltran eventually gets in.