$117K SGC 8.5 DiMaggio WWG trimmed heavily, previously an SGC 6

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

The buyers of the most famous investment card in the hobby seem to disagree. PSA 8 it might be, but it's been well known pretty much from the start that it ain't unaltered.

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Are you just trolling? If you really think the buyer knew (or suspected) the Dimaggio was trimmed, let's hear it.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Are you just not reading? People are saying investors don't care if a card is trimmed, not that the buyer of this card knows for a fact it is trimmed.

I understand it is easier to argue against this claim you made up instead, but nobody said it. Try harder.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

That's ridiculous. The strip that was removed from the left could be used as a shoelace...or belt.

[ejharrington]

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

[irv]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

That's the thing, imo. Numerous cards from way back then did not all come from the factory all the same size so trimming off whatever small amount the trimmers do (Thousandths of an inch?) is very hard to detect if the card still remains in spec.

I've heard before, however, that the TPG's can/should be able to detect, based on the edge color (and maybe some other things?) compared to the rest of the card, whether it has been recently trimmed or not?

Imo, it is a tough one for the TPG's to grade, especially if the edge looks like the rest of the card, (color/age wise) if one has been trimmed or not if it still falls into the size parameters.
(This is just my uneducated thought anyways)

[G1911]

Originally Posted by irv

That's the thing, imo. Numerous cards from way back then did not all come from the factory all the same size so trimming off whatever small amount the trimmers do (Thousandths of an inch?) is very hard to detect if the card still remains in spec.

I've heard before, however, that the TPG's can/should be able to detect, based on the edge color (and maybe some other things?) compared to the rest of the card, whether it has been recently trimmed or not?

Imo, it is a tough one for the TPG's to grade, especially if the edge looks like the rest of the card, (color/age wise) if one has been trimmed or not if it still falls into the size parameters.
(This is just my uneducated thought anyways)

In hand, it's usually pretty easy to separate a likely trim job, I think. Color of the edge itself is one of several clues. True microtrims where only a very tiny strip is cut off very modern cards (which still vary in size - a stack of 2023 Topps base are visibly different sizes if you look closely) are the ones where I just can't tell. Telling from a scan is often tough because it doesn't show most of the edge of a card.

Natural variance should lead, overall, to a roughly equal number of oversized and undersized cards.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Telling from a scan is often tough because it doesn't show most of the edge of a card.

Unless of course it is a 47 Tip Top Spahn?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

As far as vintage cards are concerned, size is not the way in which to determine if a card has been trimmed. If that were the only criteria then it would explain why there are so many trimmed cards in graded holders. The consistency of the grain (ways the layers of paper appear), the cut itself, as well as toning compared to what is typically seen on a factory cut card.

It can be hard to tell that from a photo, or if the card is already graded but with before and after images we can certainly now see SGC messed up...again.

[D. Bergin]

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

I don't even have the confidence to cut cards from sheets or strips that are meant to be cut, with my crappy Staples issued paper cutter . But I do understand that people with the right tools and skill-set, can make it seem imperceptible to most.

I've said this before, but I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

That Dimaggio "6" would have been the centerpiece of almost any dealers table, because that "8.5", would have never existed in the first place.

Altering cards is not NEW. Back in the 80's, dealers used to color in the borders of 71' Topps cards, to get an extra buck or two a card. Can you imagine what somebody would do for an extra 100K a card?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

I don't even have the confidence to cut cards from sheets or strips that are meant to be cut, with my crappy Staples issued paper cutter . But I do understand that people with the right tools and skill-set, can make it seem imperceptible to most.

I've said this before, but I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

That Dimaggio "6" would have been the centerpiece of almost any dealers table, because that "8.5", would have never existed in the first place.

Altering cards is not NEW. Back in the 80's, dealers used to color in the borders of 71' Topps cards, to get an extra buck or two a card. Can you imagine what somebody would do for an extra 100K a card?

+1. Altering cards isn’t new, but the ‘old days’ alterations were thankfully pretty easy to detect. The card doctors toolkit is a lot better these days and there are finally cards I look at, in hand, examine closely and cannot tell they have been altered. Modern cards with microtrims sometimes fall into this bucket, to make an 8 a 10 they can shave off way less than 1mm, and without the signs of age since it’s a new card, I can’t tell it’s altered. It’s well within size spec.

As a collector, it doesn’t really affect me. I don’t care if a card is altered personally beyond an academic point of view. I fear the day may come where this same problem arrives with authenticity, and that’s when the hobby implodes.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

Or a very solid relationship with their grading company of choice.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

This was my experience also. Remember when American Beauty T206s stuck out like sore thumbs because they were so much narrower?

I just do not buy the idea that these cards were found in the wild in superb condition.

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know the pay-off is substantial, but I'm still shocked at the cajones of somebody to trim a card, that is already 20K+ card nowadays. They've gotta have a lot of confidence that it's gonna pass.

I don't even have the confidence to cut cards from sheets or strips that are meant to be cut, with my crappy Staples issued paper cutter . But I do understand that people with the right tools and skill-set, can make it seem imperceptible to most.

I've said this before, but I set-up at hundreds of shows in the 80's and into the early 90's, and truly vintage NM to Gem Mint cards, were very, very few...and far between...and most of those were also trimmed or flattened out in brick like lucite holders to make them look better then they actually were.

Even cards I pulled right out of packs, I had a hard time, in good conscience, calling them MINT. I'd always just call them NM to be on the safe side.

That they started to become more common, when these huge price fluctuations began to develop between mid-graded stuff and high graded stuff, has proven to be not such a coincidence I guess.

That Dimaggio "6" would have been the centerpiece of almost any dealers table, because that "8.5", would have never existed in the first place.

Altering cards is not NEW. Back in the 80's, dealers used to color in the borders of 71' Topps cards, to get an extra buck or two a card. Can you imagine what somebody would do for an extra 100K a card?

I know I sound like a broken record but in all the hundreds of T206’s at shows I never saw a Mint one in the 80’s. I’ve only seen a handful of near perfect ones that were found in books free from handling and yet they still would have had a hard time getting a 7 in today’s standards. I view every T206 above a 6 today with suspicion. Not saying all are tampered with just hard to believe thousands are that nice naturally

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The problem is if the card meets minimum size requirements, I don't see how SGC could conclude it was altered.

Don't you find it strange that a company that is well paid to determine if a card was altered can't do it but someone who is not paid and doesn't even have the card in hand can detect the alteration?

I can only come up with three possible reasons why that would be the case (as it has been many times):

• Incompetence
• Laziness
• Corruption

Am I missing something?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Don't you find it strange that a company that is well paid to determine if a card was altered can't do it but someone who is not paid and doesn't even have the card in hand can detect the alteration?

I can only come up with three possible reasons why that would be the case (as it has been many times):

• Incompetence
• Laziness
• Corruption

Am I missing something?

You're missing "time!" It takes a lot of time to prove these trimmings...much more time than any tpg'er spends on any card.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You're missing "time!" It takes a lot of time to prove these trimmings...much more time than any tpg'er spends on any card.

According to SGC's pricing schedule, this card would cost about $4k to grade. How much time should that buy?

[Misunderestimated]

I just want to note that it was probably expensive to have this card graded. It clearly behoves the TPG to spend time on it and (try to) get it right, That's always the case. But these are the obvious examples. Its not just some ultra high grade common that's sketchy its a 6 figure card (?) .... even as PSA 1 this one is big ticket item.
I wonder if the submitter went to SGC first (or PSA) after the card was "enhanced" .... likely PSA. We'll never know.
Sadly, I've always had a soft spot for SGC with the "real vintage" stuff (pre WWII) ... Most of my cards from this set which I've been slowly building for years are SGC... I still don't have DiMaggio or Gehrig and 3 or 4 others ...... I wouldn't be in the market for anything close to this grade anyway.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Don't you find it strange that a company that is well paid to determine if a card was altered can't do it but someone who is not paid and doesn't even have the card in hand can detect the alteration?

I can only come up with three possible reasons why that would be the case (as it has been many times):

• Incompetence
• Laziness
• Corruption

Am I missing something?

You're missing the part about the opinion sellers not caring about you or your card, they care only about your wallet.

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

It clearly behooves the TPG to spend time on it and (try to) get it right, That's always the case.

Does it really behoove them? Or does it behoove them to pump out as many opinions as possible in the least amount of time for the deepest dive into your wallet?

There have been threads in the past that explored the mathematics of time divided by opinion givers divided opinions given. Hint - the answer is smaller than you want it to be.


What's your recourse when you get bad service? They have your money.