new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[dmats33312]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If you feel you need the service then you should use it but I think we should have a choice. Apparently you feel it should be thrust onto everyone. Maybe some of us feel we can fend for ourselves and do not need eBay looking out for us in this manner. As a buyer I have never had an issue with a seller on eBay where I would need the authenticity guarantee.

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

[Jay Wolt]

The concept makes sense as it can get the fraudsters out.....
but how much longer will it be until the buyers have to pay for this service?

[Peter_Spaeth]

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

[jayshum]

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

[steve B]

There are others way more qualified to answer, and if I didn't expect the answer to be long I'd ask it differently.

Should a buyer expect Ebay to protect them from their own ignorance?

Is there a legal basis for that expectation?

And the unanswerable - why do people find it so onerous to relieve themselves of their ignorance by learning things and instead abdicate that responsibility to a proven incompetent or corrupt third party?

I generally find willful ignorance worse than the scamming itself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Does the seller still get the slab back?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

As I have posted, I believe that happened with an expensive (30k at the time, much more now) card that the evidence (including another card with the identical cert, and sale in the same auction as a documented fake) suggested was fake.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by dmats33312

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

It seems like this choice is getting more and more popular, at least for Prewar cards.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Opting out …. the new American mantra. Every system put in place should have my seal of approval on in. Fuck getting a drivers license, if I want to drive without a license or insurance it should be my right. Same with airport security and everything else. Only sheepies let other people tell them what they have to do.

Interesting argument. One must support (or at least express no dissent) of any process put in place by the state or a company.

The irony of making this argument and then ending it by postulating that anyone who makes a decision on their own basis, instead of agreeing with whatever the government or a company has decided to do, are the real 'sheepie' is just outstanding. Bravo

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does the seller still get the slab back?

I don't see an answer to that question in the FAQs, but I thought if a raw card failed authentication it was sent back to the seller so I would guess the same would happen with a graded card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by steve B

There are others way more qualified to answer, and if I didn't expect the answer to be long I'd ask it differently.

Should a buyer expect Ebay to protect them from their own ignorance?

Is there a legal basis for that expectation?

And the unanswerable - why do people find it so onerous to relieve themselves of their ignorance by learning things and instead abdicate that responsibility to a proven incompetent or corrupt third party?

I generally find willful ignorance worse than the scamming itself.

I completely disagree with the comments in this post. Scamming is always worse than ignorance. It's outrageous to me that we can blame the victim of the scamming instead of the perpetrator. There's an entire thread on N54 right now on the scamming going on in the BST, and many of the victims are experienced and knowledgeable board members. it's the same thing with ebay. Buyers on ebay expect a safe marketplace. They shouldn't have to be on guard that they will be scammed.

Therefore, in general, I completely support the steps that ebay is taking with their guarantee authentication service. I have bought several items that went through this service, both graded and raw. I've never had an issue with the additional days that it took for the items to go through the service. Frankly, the biggest time issue was that one seller sent the item to the authentication service through USPS Registered Mail, that that took FOREVER. But everyone recommends Register mail for expensive items, so I was fine with it.

I agree that it makes less sense to have graded cards go through the Authentication service, but I'm fine with it. As others have mentioned, there have been scams even with graded cards such as empty box, bogus tracking numbers, cracked slabs, fake slabs, and so forth. Let me put it this way. Let's say the major auction houses said that as a new policy, graded cards would now be shipped directly from the consignor to you instead of from the auction house. if you have any problems after receiving the item, tough luck. I think there would be outrage against any auction house that announced this change because folks expect the auction house to do some basic sanity checking for even the graded cards as part of the service they expect from the BP they pay. It's the same thing here.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by dmats33312

You have a choice, don't use eBay. It's pretty simple.

Ah. One of them. Gotcha.

[Yoda]

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Interesting argument. One must support (or at least express no dissent) of any process put in place by the state or a company.

The irony of making this argument and then ending it by postulating that anyone who makes a decision on their own basis, instead of agreeing with whatever the government or a company has decided to do, are the real 'sheepie' is just outstanding. Bravo

It was one of Steve's most precious posts. Atta boy Steve.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I agree that Jay's suspicion will be foretold and Ebay, in the not so distant future, will decide that buyers should have to pay, say $5, for their "invaluable" authentication service. No free lunches. No sir.

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form? Since at the end of the day, whatever TPG is hired to review these holders is still only technically giving their opinion, I doubt they could ever claim the cards are truly fake or tampered with, and as a result confiscate them and not send them back to the seller. To my thinking, such an action would go beyond the mere rendering of an opinion, and confiscation of cards would put actual liability in the lap of the TPG and/or online seller, which they most certainly do not ever want if they can help it.

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Apparently authentication has been required for sneakers (and I think watches) on eBay for a while. Does anyone know if there is a charge to the seller or buyer for that?

I have bought several sneakers since it started and there is still no extra fee.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form?

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

There seem to be plenty of people on this board who think they can identify a fake slab from any company just from seeing online pictures so I don't think it's impossible to think that someone working for one of the grading companies couldn't learn how to identify them with the item in hand.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

[G1911]

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

What happens to graded cards outside of the big 3 and CSG?

GAI, SCD, GMA, and numerous other old, dubious, or scam graders. Many of these cards will still sell over the threshold for a nice card, as the threshold is not high. PSA will authenticate that the card is in a legit GMA slab, ignore that it’s probably trimmed, and send it to the buyer? Or do they just forward it along without certifying it? Has anyone bought one since this started?

In all instances of the graded card review, PSA is simply looking at the holder and the flip to verify they are 100% authentic. The card inside could be altered or not even real but as long as the holder and the flip are not tampered with, you will be sent the card. Pretty silly stuff.

When you go to do a listing on eBay for a graded card these are the options you are required to pick from for the listing: PSA, SGC, CSG, BVG, BGS, BCCG, GMA, KSA, HGA but you can enter your own acronym too. Maybe those 9 are the ones flagged for the AG program.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In all instances of the graded card review, PSA is simply looking at the holder and the flip to verify they are 100% authentic. The card inside could be altered or not even real but as long as the holder and the flip are not tampered with, you will be sent the card. Pretty silly stuff.

When you go to do a listing on eBay for a graded card these are the options you are required to pick from for the listing: PSA, SGC, CSG, BVG, BGS, BCCG, GMA, KSA, HGA but you can enter your own acronym too. Maybe those 9 are the ones flagged for the AG program.

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.

I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form? Since at the end of the day, whatever TPG is hired to review these holders is still only technically giving their opinion, I doubt they could ever claim the cards are truly fake or tampered with, and as a result confiscate them and not send them back to the seller. To my thinking, such an action would go beyond the mere rendering of an opinion, and confiscation of cards would put actual liability in the lap of the TPG and/or online seller, which they most certainly do not ever want if they can help it.

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

Bob your conclusion is not valid. It is a long-standing tradition on Net54 to complain about anything new, whether it makes sense or not.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Bob your conclusion is not valid. It is a long-standing tradition on Net54 to complain about anything new, whether it makes sense or not.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

LOL that is funny and the correct answer to all the silly excuses on why it is bad for eBay to try and help people from getting scammed on their site.

I noticed many of the complainers about this program also complain about fraud in the hobby.

Those that complained about all the altered cards in PSA slabs in the PWCC threads mainly collect PSA graded cards.

If all else fails it is a fun thread to read.

[Exhibitman]

Maybe the solution is to allow eBay purchasers to create a 'safe list' of sellers who do not need to send their slabs to PSA for review? I know I would (and have) trusted Scottsdale baseball Cards (Brian Marcy) with some of the most expensive purchases I've made. Why can't I safe list his stuff?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.



I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

That's a good question, as long as we understand we are fiddling around the edges here. However that ebay and PSA decide to handle GMA and GAI cards doesn't impact the validity of the process they are putting in place for raw cards and mainstream slabs, which between them is 99.9% of what is being sold.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you people think this is going to do much of anything to stop fraud, more power to you. Then again, I guess there are people who feel better with a fox guarding their henhouse, after all it needed to be guarded.

Again, I like the idea for raw cards.

[Exhibitman]

And to illustrate the problem I mentioned yesterday:



I can't see the bottom of my damn card unless I remove the label or the baggy.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m aware they are ignoring the card itself, which is the basis of my prior jabs at the absurdity of this ‘service’ and one of the jabs here.

I’m looking to know what actually happens for cards outside the big boys, as I haven’t heard any real world examples. Is PSA claiming to be an expert in the history of GMA slabs from some dudes garage? What happens to a GAI or SCD card, specifically? SCD wasn’t entirely fake, they aren’t an option on eBay categories, but it’s also not under raw and swept up in CSG’s raw card review either, as I understand it.

No experience with that but I can only guess that cards graded by any company not among those listed in their drop down list will fall through the cracks. Good thing PSA does not have to be an expert on GAI, SCD, CSA, PRO, etc etc holders and labels too. Just as raw cards that have Set Break in the title or that are listed under different categories will not be subject to the AG.

With as many graded cards sold over the $500 level each day there is certainly a lack of people speaking about their experiences which suggests to me that the buyers are ok with the new policy.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's a good question, as long as we understand we are fiddling around the edges here. However that ebay and PSA decide to handle GMA and GAI cards doesn't impact the validity of the process they are putting in place for raw cards and mainstream slabs, which between them is 99.9% of what is being sold.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

My criticism of PSA and the absurdity of authenticating a slab and not the card in the slab is separate and distinct from this process query.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

My criticism of PSA and the absurdity of authenticating a slab and not the card in the slab is separate and distinct from this process query.

Greg there is no room for that here, apparently. You have to agree with them 100% or you are part of the problem.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you people think this is going to do much of anything to stop fraud, more power to you. Then again, I guess there are people who feel better with a fox guarding their henhouse, after all it needed to be guarded.

Again, I like the idea for raw cards.

This. PSA would have to be reliable and competent for it to even possibly do anything. The thousands of altered cards they miss, the PSA 8's that magically are 10's the next day, the thousand scandals and errors (if errors they all be) do not suggest serious competence.

Even if PSA were competent, they would have to look at the card to do much. PSA authenticating that SGC or GMA did slab a card doesn't do anything for a card collector.

I don't like it for raw cards either, but that's a separate debate.

My spending on eBay has been reduced about 50% (total card expidenture is on pace for 157% growth YOY but that will temper down and is spiked by a large deal) the last year as I switch more and more to private deals to dodge their 'improvements'. The destruction of their categories is far worse than this, this policy is a minor inconvenience at present as it is not charged yet. It is mostly amusing for the absurdity of the graded card policy. It may prove problematic for me on the raw front as some of my raw buys in that price range are very unusual items that I don't think CSG will even know what they are, and are often listed wrong by the seller with false information. I really don't want CSG nixing a deal, without any input from myself, and stopping me from getting a card I want at the price I agreed with the seller.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There seem to be plenty of people on this board who think they can identify a fake slab from any company just from seeing online pictures so I don't think it's impossible to think that someone working for one of the grading companies couldn't learn how to identify them with the item in hand.

Jay,

Don't disagree at all, but I'm also including the idea of damaged slabs in this. If a slab gets damaged somehow, could someone then not question that maybe it wasn't a fake slab, but possibly a real slab that somehow got opened and had a card swapped out of it for another, and then resealed? I know the chances of that are probably minimal at best, but there's still a chance, right? Who knows, a mail carrier, or even someone at the TPG, could accidently drop/step on/crush a package or envelope holding an encapsulated card, and damage the holder. How many times here on the forum have you seen people warning others about buying cards where they detect something in the edges of the holder that look like it may have been tampered with. Cloudiness in the plastic, or whatever. Also, over the years, the TPGs all seem to have made changes and updates to their holders at one time or another. I'm assuming like you, and many others on this forum, I've probably got at least one example of each iteration of all the different holders each TPG has put out over their many years of operation, including some from TPGs no longer around. But do I know all the specific and unique differences between the holders and each TPG's different iterations, or the makeup and specific qualities of the plastic formula used in each of them so I could tell you exactly how the plastic in those holders would react and look if dropped/damaged.......NO! And probably like everyone else, I'm not about to go intentionally dropping or trying to open them without breaking the holders, just to see how they would react and what they would look like if I had accidently done so. So unless someone is a true plastics expert, and also knowledgeable in the specific ways these various TPG holders and their various iterations over all the years are sealed, and all the different ways the plastics used will react and look when and if damaged or tampered with, I'm not so sure it is that simple to find a true expert that can really tell if ALL the holders they are looking at are really tampered with or not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Greg there is no room for that here, apparently. You have to agree with them 100% or you are part of the problem.

Apparently. I think it's a fair question; if PSA is entering the slab verification business, whose slabs are they claiming to be knowledgeable enough to do this for? It's not a trap, eBay's statements haven't really clarified just the basic information here, which would seem desirable to both detractors and supports of the basic idea.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

And to illustrate the problem I mentioned yesterday:



I can't see the bottom of my damn card unless I remove the label or the baggy.

Appreciate the pic, it's good to see what the wrapper looks like. It doesn't look too bad to me but if you don't like it, why don't you take it off? You didn't buy it for the authentication, so just take the baggie off and toss it, you'll be no worse off.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

...I can't see the bottom of my damn card unless I remove the label or the baggy.

Adam, get with the times. Today's new breed of sophisticated collector doesn't care about the card. Only the flip matters.

Besides, all cards will eventually reside in vaults. The true collector will be the one with the most spreadsheets.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

Apparently. I think it's a fair question; if PSA is entering the slab verification business, whose slabs are they claiming to be knowledgeable enough to do this for? It's not a trap, eBay's statements haven't really clarified just the basic information here, which would seem desirable to both detractors and supports of the basic idea.

I think the eBay program is a do what you're told scenario. They do not care if we understand it or like it but we do have to abide by it. If you were to call over there 10 times you would get 11 different answers.

And it seems more recently, raising a differing opinion on this thread and a few others, are not welcome without being personally attacked over those opinions.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob, I'd be surprised with what is likely the minimal time involved in inspection given how many slabs they are likely be flooded with, whatever clerical personnel are handling this could even discern a good fake slab. Maybe there's some invisible thing that would make it easy for the very latest generation of holders, but almost surely nothing of the sort exists for all the prior generations..

If EVERY graded card listed for $500 or more is going out there now, that's bound to be a huge volume and they're probably scrambling just to put them all in those nifty baggies and blue folders and process the mailing.

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Appreciate the pic, it's good to see what the wrapper looks like. It doesn't look too bad to me but if you don't like it, why don't you take it off? You didn't buy it for the authentication, so just take the baggie off and toss it, you'll be no worse off.

I am taking off the sleeve because I don't care. My point is that if I cared about it I would either (1) not be able to see the whole card, or (2) void the eBay guarantee. That is not a well-considered product.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Peter, don't disagree at all. Whomever is looking at these cards is just giving an opinion, so there is no definitive decisions being made that could potentially push back liability on the TPG or online selling platform. I'm guessing they're basically saying that if it looks like something may not be correct, we're just calling off the transaction and sending the money and cards back to their respective buyers and sellers. Not really sure what will happen otherwise if they find what they think is a fake slab/flip. The TPG doing the examining can only cancel a cert # for their own slabbed cards, they certainly don't have any say so over another TPG's slabbed cards that I'm aware of. And as someone else pointed out, canceling a cert # for a faked flip/slab then can cause an issue for the person that owns the real/legitimate card/slab. Can only imagine how happy a Registry person would be to see his/her ranking negatively affected were one of their cards to be de-certified in this manner, especially if they weren't contacted and given advance notice first. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to listen in to that exchange, were one ever to happen.

That is also why I'm guessing that if they do find what they think is an issue with a slabbed card that they will still return it to the seller. Taking and confiscating a questionable card holder, along with the card in the slab, won't go over real well with a seller if the people examining the card holder erred and there really wasn't anything wrong or questionable with the card itself.

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unless the seller somehow agreed in fine print somewhere, I think they can decertify but I don't think they can confiscate.

Since I don't really send anything to any TPGs, nor worry or care about a Registry, I've never looked through any TPG documents in regard to grading to see if such a clause could actually exist. But you are right, it is possible something like that is in there, in the fine print, as just another CYA on their part so they can escape any responsibility or liability for their actions.

Sounds like you agree with my thinking that they would never resort to confiscating a holder/card though, as that would go beyond the mere giving of an opinion. I can definitely see that if any TPG or online seller went that far, that they better be damn certain they're 1000% right before even thinking of doing anything like that. In that case I'm not sure how a TPG could escape liability if they were later found to have erred in their examination and opinion. And they would likely also bring the online seller under scrutiny and potential liability as well, seeing as how they were the ones requiring the third-party authentication/examination in the first place, and being the party that hired the TPG to do that work.

And even if a TPG can get away with the de-certifying of a legit card/flip due to some fine print, we both know that the real owner of the legit flip/card in those situations.....will.....be.....pissed!

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I am taking off the sleeve because I don't care. My point is that if I cared about it I would either (1) not be able to see the whole card, or (2) void the eBay guarantee. That is not a well-considered product.

Adam, I believe the point of the eBay guarantee is that you received what you paid for. I believe 'breaking the seal' would only prevent you from a return (busting chain of custody thingy).

My son, who can pick a fake sneaker out while someone is sprinting, was saved from the hassle of being ripped off by the authenticity program on a pair of relatively low end Nike. Apparently the seller had real photos and was shipping fakes.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Hi Bob,

In the past when PSA has made the claim that a fake slab was provided to them on a review, outside of the AG program, they have broken out the card from the holder, deactivated the cert and returned the card to the customer in a card saver.

I think we can be sure that PSA is not going to return a PSA slabbed card in the sealed holder to the seller if the holder or flip do not pass the authenticity test. Not sure if what they would do if that same card were in an SGC, CSG or Beckett holder.

Hopefully a situation will not occur where PSA will take the opportunity to use the "fake holder" claim to take an altered card off the market and pass the cost onto the seller rather than writing a check to buy the card back.

In the meantime I have yet to hear a single person state their graded card did not get authenticated. With people being as prolific with their social media posts I would think we would have heard something, no?

Chase

Thanks Chase,

I did not know that is what they have done in the past. But it makes sense that they still return the card to limit any potential liability on their part should their examiners make a mistake. I still wonder if they'll do that in regard to this new authentication program though since this is something mandated by the online seller, and not necessarily being voluntarily requested by the buyer or the seller in these deals, and also potentially exposes the online seller to liability since they mandated the authentication program and hired the TPG.

And a great question if they would break out a card from some other TPG's slab because they don't think it is legit or possibly been tampered with. Like you, I have not heard of any instance where a card's slab has not passed authentication.....yet. Will be interesting to hear what they do in cases where a slabbed card does eventually get deemed as bad or tampered with, and if there is any difference in the treatment between a case where it is their own slab, or that of a different TPG.

And if there is a different treatment depending on which TPG's slab they find an issue with, then the independence question may really become an issue.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Thanks Chase,

I did not know that is what they have done in the past. But it makes sense that they still return the card to limit any potential liability on their part should their examiners make a mistake. I still wonder if they'll do that in regard to this new authentication program though since this is something mandated by the online seller, and not necessarily being voluntarily requested by the buyer or the seller in these deals, and also potentially exposes the online seller to liability since they mandated the authentication program and hired the TPG.

And a great question if they would break out a card from some other TPG's slab because they don't think it is legit or possibly been tampered with. Like you, I have not heard of any instance where a card's slab has not passed authentication.....yet. Will be interesting to hear what they do in cases where a slabbed card does eventually get deemed as bad or tampered with, and if there is any difference in the treatment between a case where it is their own slab, or that of a different TPG.

And if there is a different treatment depending on which TPG's slab they find an issue with, then the independence question may really become an issue.

I think...I understand the purpose or intent of this but it is fraught with issues in my opinion. From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

eBay has had a tendency to try to fix things that were never broken. Obviously from their vantage point the AG is serving some purpose. Maybe there was a lot more fraud than we know of. I would prefer to see eBay and all the grading companies working to remove the massive volume of altered cards before they put time and effort into checking to see if my recently graded CSG card was really holdered by them. Just saying...

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 24 years of heavy buying on ebay, there was a total of ONE occasion on which someone sent me something other than what I bought. It was not an item the guarantee would apply to, and in any event I got my money back within one day. I have to believe my experience is typical of buyers in the card space. Are they REALLY saving us from anything nontrivial? Sure, you can posit the box of rocks hypothetical, but how often does that really happen? I don't think a program this disruptive can be justified by a once in a blue moon type of fraud.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think...I understand the purpose or intent of this but it is fraught with issues in my opinion. From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

eBay has had a tendency to try to fix things that were never broken. Obviously from their vantage point the AG is serving some purpose. Maybe there was a lot more fraud than we know of. I would prefer to see eBay and all the grading companies working to remove the massive volume of altered cards before they put time and effort into checking to see if my recently graded CSG card was really holdered by them. Just saying...

LOL

I hear you. There is no perfect answer that covers everyone's questions and issues 100%. Ebay obviously had/has some intention(s) in mind when proposing and implementing this new program, but they have not seen fit to share that with everyone that uses their platform, so the best we all can do is guess as to what their true and ultimate intentions are.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

From my vantage point as a seller and buyer I have felt eBay did a pretty decent job of keeping the site free from fraud. I know this statement upset Steve to no end but this has been my experience.

This. I have been buying on eBay for 21 years. I have never once been scammed or defrauded. By applying the most basic of common sense, I've mostly avoided it. As a buyer, that eBay sides with me 100% no matter what for several weeks after a card is delivered leaves essentially no room to get defrauded anyways (which has only happened a couple times, and by big name sellers). Even if I bought a fake or the seller sent a fake instead of a legit card pictured, it doesn't really matter. I return it, eBay pays the shipping, and then eBay forces the seller to refund me.

Having every single card (or slab, they won't even review the actual card the time, which should maybe signal that this isn't about cards at all anymore) of value go through this review cannot possibly be cheaper than the old policy. Nor does it actually afford greater protection. I know this apparently sends some members into rages, but oh well.