1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I'm sure it's been discussed - but why was only the Johnson card targeted for correction? Is there a story behind it?

The only story I have heard is that Randy is very religious and didn't want the advertisement displayed. How true that is I have no idea.

[Statfreak101]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The only story I have heard is that Randy is very religious and didn't want the advertisement displayed. How true that is I have no idea.

Yes, I have heard this as well - that he didn't like the sign, or being in a picture with that sign.

With that said - the million dollar question. Why the heck wasn't the black box/corrected version just done right away?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

Yes, I have heard this as well - that he didn't like the sign, or being in a picture with that sign.

With that said - the million dollar question. Why the heck wasn't the black box/corrected version just done right away?

As someone who was collecting back then the answer in my opinion was cash. Error cards were a big thing at that time and sold for huge premiums. Higher sale price on individual cards leads to more new unopened product selling.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

As someone who was collecting back then the answer in my opinion was cash. Error cards were a big thing at that time and sold for huge premiums. Higher sale price on individual cards leads to more new unopened product selling.

I don’t know if this one was an intentional variation. Virtually zero publicity for this card until a tiny blurb in the annual Beckett stating its “discovery” in 1999. Ten years later! And I believe this note wasn’t even added to the books until the 2002 annual.

As for the why...From a production standpoint, could Randy have seen the card and complained about it post production? We know that Fleer was printing and distributing cards by mid-November 1988. Maybe earlier, but unverified, if so. We know that by mid-November the card had seen multiple cover-up attempts. Did Randy somehow see one of the few clear examples immediately upon release and object to the ad? How did he see it so quickly? I’ve never heard of a card company sending proofs to players before production. I don’t believe that is a thing. Very odd but I’m doubtful that Randy’s objection is the cause for it.

What’s really surprising to me is that nobody has managed to track down someone in the know. No Fleer people on the record even sharing conjecture, questionable memories.

[jp1216]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I don’t know if this one was an intentional variation. Virtually zero publicity for this card until a tiny blurb in the annual Beckett stating its “discovery” in 1999. Ten years later! And I believe this note wasn’t even added to the books until the 2002 annual.

I collected A LOT of '89 Fleer and was shocked to hear about the RJ versions over 10 years later. How did it take so long for someone to discover this? RJ was a notable rookie. To be corrected so early and only on the RJ cards is puzzling.

[Statfreak101]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I don’t know if this one was an intentional variation. Virtually zero publicity for this card until a tiny blurb in the annual Beckett stating its “discovery” in 1999. Ten years later! And I believe this note wasn’t even added to the books until the 2002 annual.

As for the why...From a production standpoint, could Randy have seen the card and complained about it post production? We know that Fleer was printing and distributing cards by mid-November 1988. Maybe earlier, but unverified, if so. We know that by mid-November the card had seen multiple cover-up attempts. Did Randy somehow see one of the few clear examples immediately upon release and object to the ad? How did he see it so quickly? I’ve never heard of a card company sending proofs to players before production. I don’t believe that is a thing. Very odd but I’m doubtful that Randy’s objection is the cause for it.

What’s really surprising to me is that nobody has managed to track down someone in the know. No Fleer people on the record even sharing conjecture, questionable memories.

That might be the most frustrating part - from a collectors standpoint. The fact that no one has gone on record from Fleer about this whole thing. It isn't like they need to stay secretive or protect themselves, given they are now a defunct company.

Just weird, really.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I'm sure it's been discussed - but why was only the Johnson card targeted for correction? Is there a story behind it?

The other cards in the set with Marlboro ads either show small portions of the sign or the sign in the background is out of focus. I think Fleer’s biggest concern was running afoul of The Comprehensive Smoking Education Act that was implemented a couple years earlier. The ad on the RJ card is in the middle of the image, perfectly in focus with the Marlboro lettering and the Marlboro Man being almost on display.

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

With that said - the million dollar question. Why the heck wasn't the black box/corrected version just done right away?

It seems that the method Fleer used to cover the ad for the common cards wasn’t an immediate solution that was available to them. I think they wanted to at least show some due diligence and obscure the tobacco advertising as best as they could while the more permanent fix was in the works.

Was the Ripken FF immediately corrected or is anyone willing to share how long it took Fleer for the common version of that card to come out after the discovery?

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

What’s really surprising to me is that nobody has managed to track down someone in the know. No Fleer people on the record even sharing conjecture, questionable memories.

I sent an email to Ted Taylor, who was a former spokesman or VP for Fleer, a few years ago inquiring about the Marlboro variations. He replied to me with this:
“Sorry I cannot help. I joined Fleer in January, 1992. In fact I never heard
anyone speak of any variations there except the Billy Ripken. As for
pointing you in another direction I'm afraid I can't help there either.
Fleer is dead and gone and the employees are spread all over the place.”

I came across some info on another fleer employee from around that time period, but I can’t locate it anymore. It sure would be cool to hear the true story about these cards from someone that was involved.

[Statfreak101]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

The other cards in the set with Marlboro ads either show small portions of the sign or the sign in the background is out of focus. I think Fleer’s biggest concern was running afoul of The Comprehensive Smoking Education Act that was implemented a couple years earlier. The ad on the RJ card is in the middle of the image, perfectly in focus with the Marlboro lettering and the Marlboro Man being almost on display.



It seems that the method Fleer used to cover the ad for the common cards wasn’t an immediate solution that was available to them. I think they wanted to at least show some due diligence and obscure the tobacco advertising as best as they could while the more permanent fix was in the works.

Was the Ripken FF immediately corrected or is anyone willing to share how long it took Fleer for the common version of that card to come out after the discovery?



I sent an email to Ted Taylor, who was a former spokesman or VP for Fleer, a few years ago inquiring about the Marlboro variations. He replied to me with this:
“Sorry I cannot help. I joined Fleer in January, 1992. In fact I never heard
anyone speak of any variations there except the Billy Ripken. As for
pointing you in another direction I'm afraid I can't help there either.
Fleer is dead and gone and the employees are spread all over the place.”

I came across some info on another fleer employee from around that time period, but I can’t locate it anymore. It sure would be cool to hear the true story about these cards from someone that was involved.

That might be the best way to get some more information on this whole thing - ex Fleer employees. They should have nothing holding them back from divulging information, other than their own personal benefit and knowledge.

I know Frank Mustin, who was the grandson and involved has since passed away.

[jakeinge]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

That might be the most frustrating part - from a collectors standpoint. The fact that no one has gone on record from Fleer about this whole thing. It isn't like they need to stay secretive or protect themselves, given they are now a defunct company.

Just weird, really.

Awesome, awesome thread!

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many of you, but I've always had this thought in the back of my mind that in the case of the Ripken, the variation depended on who did the printing. I would assume (maybe wrongly) that due to the sheer volume of cards that needed to be produced, there were multiple printers doing the work for Fleer. So perhaps the clear Marlboro came from one printer and all of the printers were using the same print codes. So in theory you could have the same print codes and get different variations depending on which printer the case came from.

I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

[Statfreak101]

Originally Posted by jakeinge

Awesome, awesome thread!

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many of you, but I've always had this thought in the back of my mind that in the case of the Ripken, the variation depended on who did the printing. I would assume (maybe wrongly) that due to the sheer volume of cards that needed to be produced, there were multiple printers doing the work for Fleer. So perhaps the clear Marlboro came from one printer and all of the printers were using the same print codes. So in theory you could have the same print codes and get different variations depending on which printer the case came from.

I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

Reasonable thought, but I am not sure.

You are more likely to find multiple variations of the Johnson card in the same case than you are the Ripken variations. Like, if you have a sealed case that you open and the first Ripken card is a black scribble, you are 99.9% going to find only that variation of Ripken throughout the remainder of the case.

However, in the case of the Johnson card...I have opened a sealed case before and gotten multiple variations out of the same case...SOMETIMES even the same box (although rare).