New Old Judge discovery

[brewing]

Saw this on the twitter feed of olberman. Unknown old judge cards of minor leaguers.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=y...ure%3Dyoutu.be


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[glynparson]

very cool piece. I love it when KO talks cards, hell I just love hearing him opine on anything.

[Jacklitsch]

Not sure why he refers to the cards as Old Judges. Can the experts chime in?

[slidekellyslide]

What Steve said...how are these Old Judge cards?

[h2oya311]

If they were distributed in Old Judge packs, what else would you call them? How 'bout Old Judge Minor League Supplement cards? And the line Gypsy Queen example would be a Gypsy Queen ML Supplement.

[Jason]

Cool discovery no matter how they are designated.But I agree they don't seem like Old Judge cards.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

If they were distributed in Old Judge packs, what else would you call them? How 'bout Old Judge Minor League Supplement cards? And the line Gypsy Queen example would be a Gypsy Queen ML Supplement.

I think he's just guessing they came out of an OJ pack, but nothing on the card itself suggests that.

[Julz24]

Amazing story. Thanks for posting this!

[the 'stache]

I just hit "play" on last night's show, and couldn't believe how excited I was when I heard him talk about these newly discovered cards.

[joeadcock]

Cool stuff

[sycks22]

Pretty cool find.

[the-illini]

So who got that amazing scrapbook full of cards?

[ullmandds]

what's a window seat?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

what's a window seat?

It's a window with a large area at the foot of it so someone could sit there...like a very large window sill. We have several in our house, next to large windows.

Great cards, great discovery and reported by a passionate collector.

[NYHighlanderFan]

The baseball card hobby is the only going I enjoy hearing Olbermann talk about.

I can't disagree more with his liberal-socialist-communistic view of how things should be and no other way. God help us all already as it is...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NYHighlanderFan

The baseball card hobby is the only going I enjoy hearing Olbermann talk about.

I can't disagree more with his liberal-socialist-communistic view of how things should be and no other way. God help us all already as it is...

With KO I put politics aside, I have to .......so let's quickly get back to cards and all will be good.....

[DixieBaseball]

In the video, Keith showed evidence of a Greenwood & Morans card with Gypsy Queen advertisement along the bottom of the card which was very similar to the Gypsy Queen cards (The ad on GQ cards is on top). Then looking at the 2 newly discovered G & M Minor league cards, they looked just like the GQ Greenwood & Moran card, except they didn't have the GQ advertisement at the bottom of the card. It is reasonable to think these 3 cards are the same, but not so sure about saying the two newly discovered came out of a GQ pack and/or especially an OJ pack. It sounds plausible to think they were some type of supplement for the Oakland area and were a part of GQ, but the distribution is a mystery. Perhaps they were simply handed out in the area?

[the 'stache]

It's pretty amazing that any of these regional issues managed to survive after the great earthquake and fire.

[autograf]

I'm assuming the album was the album sold by SCP that a board member picked up? Or did Olbermann get a different album. The two new prospects look like they've had the Gypsy Queen tagline cut from the bottom. The Donovan that showed up originally sold in a Lipset auction I think for just South of 100K a few years back. Neat, neat stuff.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by autograf

I'm assuming the album was the album sold by SCP that a board member picked up? Or did Olbermann get a different album. The two new prospects look like they've had the Gypsy Queen tagline cut from the bottom. The Donovan that showed up originally sold in a Lipset auction I think for just South of 100K a few years back. Neat, neat stuff.

Actually, I think Barry S sold it in one of his auctions and it brought around 81k? (still a ton of money)......and the consignor, who is a good friend, was very happy.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by autograf

I'm assuming the album was the album sold by SCP that a board member picked up? Or did Olbermann get a different album. The two new prospects look like they've had the Gypsy Queen tagline cut from the bottom. The Donovan that showed up originally sold in a Lipset auction I think for just South of 100K a few years back. Neat, neat stuff.

Tom - Good catch! I went back and looked at the video again, and I believe you are correct. They look cut at the bottom and it seems very safe to assume these 2 looked like the other Greenwood & Moran GQ. Very nice piece that Keith and crew put together. I love dormant cards that are unearthed.

[ullmandds]

I have to disagree with you guys...I do not believe the 2 newly discovered cards had gypsy queen cut from the bottom. I base this on a few factors:

1-the size of the 3 cards are pretty close...in order for the 2 newer ones to have had gypsy queen cut from the bottom they'd have been a bit longer.

2- the cut on the bottom of the newly discovered cards looks original

3-the quality of the photos is slightly different

4-in conclusion esp based on the fact that these were local/minor league players they may have been created by a factory worker for his/her own personal use based on some pics that were available and didn't necessarily ever have any advertisement on them.

Just my thoughts.

[ullmandds]

After further review...who knows!!!!!

[oldjudge]

Wow--so much misinformation. First, these, if anything, are Gypsy Queens, NOT Old Judges. Old Judges came in Old Judge cigarette packs, Gypsy Queens came in Gypsy Queen cigarette packs. Second, the two new trimmed cards were not scanned next to an existing McDonald Gypsy Queen. The McDonald is an image of the card, not the actual card. My guess is that they are all the same size.
Third, the McDonald sold in Barry Sloate auction for about $80,000. The card was originally found by David Bryan on Ebay. The auction took place in the late-1990s I believe.
The only problem with the cards is that there is no identification of the manufacturer. The most likely scenario, as I note above, is that they are the same Gypsy Queen set as the McDonald. However, I guess they could be from another set, or they could be unissued printers scrap--who knows.
BTW, the McDonald image posted above is not the full image. Our book has the complete image.

[z28jd]

Yeah, what Jay said is what I think. If anything they are GQ cards, but even when you look at the space at the bottom of the McDonald between the name and the ad, there should at least be part of the GQ ad showing, even if they were slightly trimmed. Based on that, I'd say they are more likely proofs of the GQ card. Definitely not an Old Judge card though

[dstudeba]

Incredible find, unfortunately I had some problems with the production of the segment

If you look at the 1:56 minute mark, here is a picture of the scrapbook page with the two newly discovered cards.



Then you look at the same page at the 2:10 mark and it has the only other discovered California league GQ card. Obviously a photoshop job.



Then to continue their photoshopping job they put the three cards together and again fail to account for the relative sizes at 2:51.

[E93]

It looks like if the bottoms were just trimmed off we would still see part of the Gypsie Queen lettering judging ratios by eye. My guess would be that they are some type of GQ proof. Whatever they are, they are extremely cool!

Thanks also to KO for promoting this cool find and the hobby in general through his show.
JimB

[dstudeba]

I do believe that when the sizes are checked it will show that the new cards have the ads cut off. This was relatively common, and could have been done to make it fit in the scrapbook since they look slightly larger than the normal GQs. Does anyone have the exact measurement? According to my SCD big book it says it is approximately the same as a regular GQ.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by E93

It looks like if the bottoms were just trimmed off we would still see part of the Gypsie Queen lettering judging ratios by eye. My guess would be that they are some type of GQ proof. Whatever they are, they are extremely cool!

Jim -

Take a look at the first picture in my post, it is more photoshopping. That picture of the three cards together should not be shown to collectors as it is misleading in many ways.

[autograf]

From the album photo, it's clear that the cards were trimmed near the team name, unlike the 'doctored' or enhanced pictures which appear to have added a significant amount of lower border. I still stand by my belief that they're from the same set and that the two cards that were recently found had the Gypsy Queen tagline trimmed. The enhanced cards with the bottom border added are somewhat deceptive but I assume done that way to just show the cards better.....still very, very cool stuff. You have to assume that there are more of them out there. On the album.....again.....was this the album that was sold in the recent SCP auction for $80K+? Or is it another album out there?

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Wow--so much misinformation. First, these, if anything, are Gypsy Queens, NOT Old Judges. Old Judges came in Old Judge cigarette packs, Gypsy Queens came in Gypsy Queen cigarette packs. Second, the two new trimmed cards were not scanned next to an existing McDonald Gypsy Queen. The McDonald is an image of the card, not the actual card. My guess is that they are all the same size.
Third, the McDonald sold in Barry Sloate auction for about $80,000. The card was originally found by David Bryan on Ebay. The auction took place in the late-1990s I believe.
The only problem with the cards is that there is no identification of the manufacturer. The most likely scenario, as I note above, is that they are the same Gypsy Queen set as the McDonald. However, I guess they could be from another set, or they could be unissued printers scrap--who knows.
BTW, the McDonald image posted above is not the full image. Our book has the complete image.

Cool stuff guys. OJ or GQ...it is neat either way.

Z Wheat

[oldjudge]

Tom--the albums were the Cambridge Collection, sold by Goldin, not SCP. These cards are different, although Keith blended them together in his piece.

[autograf]

Ah.....thought that was a couple of other nice cards you found in the album!

So.....Olbermann engineered the two newly found ones into pages of the Cambridge Collection for viewing purposes?

[oldjudge]

No, the page he showed with the two trimmed cards was not from the Cambridge Collection. The other scrapbook pages were. I'm not sure why he showed the Cambridge Collection stuff at all.

[Al C.risafulli]

What a fantastic hobby, where there are so many scholars that study the hobby so hard, and yet there are still new discoveries all the time.

When I saw the piece, I immediately assumed that he was reporting on cards that were in the Cambridge Collection. Thanks for clearing that up, Jay.

Still, given the audience (which goes far beyond card collectors, most of who do not understand this stuff), it was a solid piece. And a great discovery.

-Al

[Exhibitman]

FWIW, the boxing cards shown in the screen cap all have had their ads hacked off, so I assume that the same fate befell the two cards in question. Here are the Godfrey and Wilson cards as they should look:

[oldjudge]

Adam--what you are saying is not correct. The serpentine Gypsy Queen banner on the McDonald is in fact different than the serpentine banners on the boxers. Look closely and you will see this.

[dstudeba]

So I take it this was a private acquisition, or are these cards going to auction somewhere?

Also I think Adam was saying the boxers on the page were trimmed. It is therefore not a leap to assume that if the collector trimmed the boxers they would not have a problem trimming the California League cards.

[uffda51]

My house was built in 1905. I just checked my window seats . . . Zippo. Nada.

[oldjudge]

You should have bought the house on Linda Vista. That one is probably chock full of cards.

[Jeffrompa]

I don't think uniformity was the code of the day in the 1880's . Also , the photographic style is very much similar to the Old Judges and Gypsy Queens . The difference maybe because they were minor leaguers . Hopefully more minor leaguers will show up to clear some of the mystery . Mr Olbermann does a good job of wrapping the history around that early Era of cards .

[Joe_G.]

Extremely interesting!, I see I'm late to the party but still more to discuss here. What makes this confusing is that the newly discovered cards are shown differently throughout the segment. As mentioned, most of the scrapbook pages originate from the Cambridge collection which only contained 3 GQs in total. But it appears these new California League GQs were found amongst a treasure trove of GQs (attached below). If the image I've attached below is the true representation of the cards (no photoshopping), then I believe these are GQ cards w/ trimmed advertisement banner. The trim at bottom is tight and hence no evidence of the GQ banner. The card proportions appear correct to me, a bit wider than normal N175s. The un-photoshoped images also show a strong left border shadow that was typical of many Goodwin & Co. cards produced in 1888 and especially 1889 & 90 (including the McDonald GQ).

IF these are to be considered GQs, we are left with a dilemma of how to catalogue them. To date, all photographic cards from Goodwin & Co. are lumped together in the same Cartophilic listing. That is, Old Judges cigarette cards (N172), Old Judge cabinets (N173), and Gypsy Queens (N175 large & small) are lumped together to define the complete list of players, poses, and variations. However, every N175 and N173 player can be found as an N172. Now there are unique poses such as King Kelly portrait in street clothes that are not known as N172s (only known in cabinet form) BUT the N172 set really defines all the possible players (all 522 subjects - Wilson being the last addition).

The previously only known California League GQ is that of James McDonald. He also enjoys having a rare 1889 California League Old Judge card. When we wrote the book, we opted to catalogue the N172 as 308.5-1 and the GQ as 308.5-2 (see page 317). But these two most recent California League discoveries of Monte Clements and John Donovan are new players to Goodwin's photographic ensemble. So one could consider adding new player numbers of 79.5-1 for Monte Clements (between Jack Clements & Elmer Cleveland) and 129.5-1 (between Jim Donnelly and Charles Dooley) for John Donovan. I suspect most purist would require more evidence to prove these are Goodwin & Co. issued cards (i.e. GQs) via an untrimmed copy before adding Clements and Donovan to the list.

Another option would be to pull these three unique California League GQs into a set of their own and not catalogue them, cartophilically, with the other Goodwin & Co. issues. Those few who are going after an example of all the players would probably rather keep these separated and I don't blame them. Or you could just tell yourself you want an example of all the players that can be found on an N172 and just live with the fact that two numbers, 79.5 & 129.5, don't matter.

Regardless of how these cards are perceived, thank you KO for bringing these to light of the hobby in such a grand fashion. Assuming you read this, it would be great if you (KO) could share a little more information on these cards including high resolution scans that have not been photoshoped.

[oldjudge]

Joe-forgetting the technical numbering system for a second, these cards, if they are Gypsy Queens (you can't be 100% certain, although that is probably the case) are part of some Gypsy Queen subset. They are not small or large Gypsy Queens, but are, for lack of a better term, the phrase I used in the book, a medium Gypsy Queen. Their discovery does not change the number of members in the Old Judge set --there are still 522. It does increase the number of subjects in the Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin and Company to 524. Personally, if it could be verified that they were in fact Gypsy Queens, I would have no problem assigning numbers to them, the Cartophilic Society listing includes all of Goodwin's photographic cards. However, their discovery does not change the Old Judge set.
On a side note, it is interesting to see the many variations in the Gypsy Queen set. You have the large Gypsy Quuens which are very rare and whose method of distribution is still a mystery. You have the normal small Gypsy Queens which are much rarer than their Old Judge counterparts, probably due to the unpopularity of the Gypsy Queen cigarettes. And now you may have this California League Gypsy Queen set. Are we having fun yet?

[Joe_G.]

I'm in complete agreement with you Jay, I didn't mean to suggest these two latest cards are to be considered OJs. I was careful to refer to the new players as merely adding to "Goodwin's photographic ensemble" and only really impacting the Cartophilic listing. I agree that a complete run of Old Judge subjects stands at 522 but the number of different subjects in the Cartophilic listing has now jumped to 524 IF we agree these were issued by Goodwin & Co. (which as previously stated I suspect is the case). There are now so many updates for the 2nd edition of the book

Very cool discovery, I love this stuff!

[Joe_G.]

Keith was able to share some clear scans of the cards, no photoshopping. The brightness and contrast are not quite right and the scans are cropped rather tightly, but the scans adequately capture the cards as I expected and hoped to see them. I've added the McDonald (not mine), to scale, for comparison. While the trimmed bottom on the new finds won't allow us to 100% confirm they are Goodwin & Co. issues it sure looks probable. Note that all the GQs on the scrap book page are trimmed on the bottom, not just the California League GQs. Neat cards, and thank you again Mr. Olbermann.

[tjb1952tjb]

Originally Posted by NYHighlanderFan

The baseball card hobby is the only going I enjoy hearing Olbermann talk about.

I can't disagree more with his liberal-socialist-communistic view of how things should be and no other way. God help us all already as it is...

+1

[the 'stache]

I'm not sure why KO's politics needed to be brought into this topic at all. Invariably, those discussions devolve into some sort of partisan pissing match.

Can we please just enjoy these newly discovered cards, and keep the elephant and donkey out of the room? Thank you.

[sportzjunky]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm not sure why KO's politics needed to be brought into this topic at all. Invariably, those discussions devolve into some sort of partisan pissing match.

Can we please just enjoy these newly discovered cards, and keep the elephant and donkey out of the room? Thank you.

+1............. back on subject. Thank you to KO, Jay & Joe.. GREAT STUFF and more exciting stuff for the hobby and incredible pub for the Old Judge and 19th century cards. Please keep it there.

[Exhibitman]

Joe, Jay, other OJ masters, what is the relative scarcity of GQ cards with the wavy logo at bottom as compared to OJ cards with the wavy logo at bottom? Any idea as to the ratio between the two?

[dstudeba]

Joe - Thanks so much for those scans. Hopefully that clears up a lot of confusion for collectors.