T206 520 set ?

[MR RAREBACK]

Has anyone already done the homework
If you try for all 520 in the hardest backs say
Drum
Uzit
Lenox
broadleaf
Carolina brights
Hindu
epdg
Tolstoi
Cycle
American beauty
Would you need other backs to get to 520
I know you would at least need 2 polar bears
And you have to go for sovereign or old mill on two of the cobbs
This seems like it would take a lot of research

[53toppscollector]

I did this quickly, so if I made a mistake, cut me a bit of slack.

I used the following scarcity rating for the backs from Scot Reader

1. Brown Lenox
2. Broad Leaf 460
3. Drum
4. Uzit
5. Red Hindu
6. Black Lenox
7. Broad Leaf 350
8. Carolina Brights
9. Piedmont 460/42
10. American Beauty 350 No Frame
11. American Beauty 460
12. Cycle 460
13. Brown Hindu
14. American Beauty 350 Frame
15. Sovereign 350 Apple Green
16. Sovereign 460
17. Cycle 350
18. Sovereign 150
19. Tolstoi
20. El Principe de Gales
21. Sweet Caporal 460/25
22. Sovereign 350 Forest Green
23. Old Mill
24. Old Mill Southern
25. Polar Bear


If you start at Brown Lenox and move down, eliminating cards till you get to the end, the most "common" back you need is Polar Bear for Demmitt and O'Hara STL variations, and then it is Old Mill SL for those printed without Hindu Brown backs, and then an Old Mill BBS. As most would guess, it belongs to Elberfeld Washington Portrait, which was printed only with Piedmont 350, SC 350/30, SC 350/25 and Old Mill Backs.

Here is the full rundown:

Lenox Brown: 21
Broadleaf 460: 27
Drum: 104
Uzit: 27
Hindu Red: 14
Lenox Black: 11
Broadleaf 350: 72
Carolina Brights: 24
Hindu Brown: 136
AB 350 With Frame: 5
Sovereign 350 Apple Green: 4
Sovereign 150: 48
Tolstoi: 4
EPDG: 2
Sovereign 350 Forest Green: 4
Old Mill: 1
Old Mill Southern League: 14
Polar Bear: 2

[53toppscollector]

One thing to note, however, is that not all Sovereign 150s and Old Mills are created equally.

For a lot of the Print Group 1 subjects, the Old Mill is much much harder than the Sovereign. In some cases, there are 4 or 5x more Sov150s than Old Mills.

[Rhotchkiss]

Don’t forget the brown old mills, blue old mills, and blank backs!

[HobokenJon]

To do this right, you’d really need to look at the different pops subject by subject. Plenty of subjects in the 150-350 series are much tougher with Old Mill backs than brown Hindu or other rare backs. Likewise, the toughest back in the 350-only series for numerous subjects is Tolstoi — even tougher than Drum.

[MR RAREBACK]

If we shave some of the harder backs down what would it look like say for instance
Lenox brown 2
Broadleaf 460 4
Drum 8
Uzit 8
Hindu red 8
Lenox black 20
Broadleaf 20
Carolina 20
Hindu 80

[stutor]

Great question. Several cards aren’t possible with only the backs listed in the original post. Cobb portrait green and Crawford throwing for instance. There are several of these. As HobokenJon said, the 150/350 OMs would most definitely be a requisite part of such a set.

[nineunder71]

This is very interesting.

James, PM sent regarding a couple questions on the bottom half of your Post #2.

As Sonny mentioned, my first thought is there should be at least 2 OMs (not to mention any of those super tough Print Group 1’s that have lower pop than any other back): Elberfeld portrait Wash & Cobb Green (much tougher than Sov150)

Also, I have less than 7 total Sovereign 350s for my off-back set and I think those subjects should be easy to figure out. Probably an instance like the Cobb Green.

The overall numbers there James, really look great, thanks for posting that research! As others stated, wow it would be a ton of research to start actually drilling into the exact total population of each subject’s rare backs, but it would be extremely neat to have this tallied somewhere.

Thanks for the post and look forward to seeing where this goes

Colton

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

Has anyone already done the homework
If you try for all 520 in the hardest backs say
Drum
Uzit
Lenox
broadleaf
Carolina brights
Hindu
epdg
Tolstoi
Cycle
American beauty
Would you need other backs to get to 520
I know you would at least need 2 polar bears
And you have to go for sovereign or old mill on two of the cobbs
This seems like it would take a lot of research

If I didn't miss any you could get to 484 without using other backs

If you exclude Sovereign and Old Mill in print group 1 (150/350 subjects) there are 19 subjects that you would need to use an Old Mill or Sovereign


Brown, George (Washington)
Cobb (bat on)
Cobb (green portrait)
Crawford (throwing)
Criss
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Donohue
Elberfeld (portrait Washington)
Hahn
Jacklitsch
Kleinow (NY with bat)
McGraw (finger in air)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Murphy (throwing)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
Stahl (no glove)
Waddell (throwing)
Williams

Print Group 2 has 3 subjects that you would need to use a back not on your list

Demmitt St. Louis
O'Hara NY
O'Hara St. Louis

and you would need the Old Mill for the 14 Southern League subjects thet weren't printed with a Hindu back

[nineunder71]

Here’s two

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I did this quickly, so if I made a mistake, cut me a bit of slack.

I used the following scarcity rating for the backs from Scot Reader

1. Brown Lenox
2. Broad Leaf 460
3. Drum
4. Uzit
5. Red Hindu
6. Black Lenox
7. Broad Leaf 350
8. Carolina Brights
9. Piedmont 460/42
10. American Beauty 350 No Frame
11. American Beauty 460
12. Cycle 460
13. Brown Hindu
14. American Beauty 350 Frame
15. Sovereign 350 Apple Green
16. Sovereign 460
17. Cycle 350
18. Sovereign 150
19. Tolstoi
20. El Principe de Gales
21. Sweet Caporal 460/25
22. Sovereign 350 Forest Green
23. Old Mill
24. Old Mill Southern
25. Polar Bear


If you start at Brown Lenox and move down, eliminating cards till you get to the end, the most "common" back you need is Polar Bear for Demmitt and O'Hara STL variations, and then it is Old Mill SL for those printed without Hindu Brown backs, and then an Old Mill BBS. As most would guess, it belongs to Elberfeld Washington Portrait, which was printed only with Piedmont 350, SC 350/30, SC 350/25 and Old Mill Backs.

Here is the full rundown:

Lenox Brown: 21
Broadleaf 460: 27
Drum: 104
Uzit: 27
Hindu Red: 14
Lenox Black: 11
Broadleaf 350: 72
Carolina Brights: 24
Hindu Brown: 136
AB 350 With Frame: 5
Sovereign 350 Apple Green: 3
Sovereign 150: 48
Tolstoi: 5
EPDG: 2
Sovereign 350 Forest Green: 4
Old Mill: 1
Old Mill Southern League: 14
Polar Bear: 2

Wow nice job James! To those curious I didn’t include Brown Old Mill and Blank in my list because they are hand-cut. I’m not sure what to make of Blue Old Mill. Withholding judgment on that one.

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

This is very interesting.

James, PM sent regarding a couple questions on the bottom half of your Post #2.

As Sonny mentioned, my first thought is there should be at least 2 OMs (not to mention any of those super tough 150/350s that have lower pop than any other back): Elberfeld portrait Wash & Cobb Green (much tougher than Sov150)

Also, I have less than 7 total Sovereign 350s for my off-back set and I think those subjects should be easy to figure out. Probably an instance like the Cobb Green.

The overall numbers there James, really look great, thanks for posting that research! As others stated, wow it would be a ton of research to start actually drilling into the exact total population of each subject’s rare backs, but it would be extremely neat to have this tallied somewhere.

Thanks for the post and look forward to seeing where this goes

Colton

Will be easier to respond here. My list, again, was using the general scarcity rankings. As I caveated in the follow up to my original post, a lot of the Old Mills are far more scarce than Soverign 150s, for example, so my list was a breakdown using the general scarcity ranking, not the relative scarcities.

For the Sovereign 350 Apple Green, I have these:

Frank Smith White Cap: I show this one with EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi, all which rank lower based on the list provided in my intro to my post (that comes from Scot Reader). The EPDG, Old Mill and Tolstoi actually have a lower pop for the front/back combo than the Sov350.

Kleinow NY Catching: Same as above

Rhoades Right Arm Extends: Same as above

Doyle (NY, Hands Above Head): I originally missed this one in the above and thought it was Tolstoi, but in checking the checklist again, it appears the Doyle is an Apple Green and not a Forest Green, so I will adjust that one.

Tolstoi:

Byrne - Only other off back I see is a Sov350 Forest Green
Cross - I only see the Tolstoi for off backs
Doyle (NY Hands Above Head)
Mowery - Only other off back is the Sov350 Forest Green
Rossman - There is only 1 copy, as far as I can tell

EPDG:

Lundgren Chicago - I believe EPDG was the only off back for this front
Jennings Portrait - Has a Sov350FG and Old Mill, the Old Mill is by far the lowest pop count

Sovereign 350 Forest Green:

Browne (Was) - The Old Mill has a much lower pop count
Crawford (Throwing) - Same as above
Dahlen (Brooklyn) - Same as above
O'Hara (NY) - I think this is O'Hara's only off back

At some point I will put together the 520 with the lowest pop counts for each individual card. I have the data, it will just take a while

[nineunder71]

Thanks James, that answers everything perfect. Your Sov Apple Greens ranked above the Tolstois is what through off my numbers from yours. I have all of those w Tolstoi, not Sov, like you said Relative scarcity over general scarcity.

Thanks again for the response and Keep up the Great Work!!

[53toppscollector]

Okay so I am curious and I will put together the 520 list based on scarcity of the back within the run, not just the overall scarcity. This will take a bit of time, so hold tight

[MR RAREBACK]

We can call it the ultimate t206 set

[53toppscollector]

Here is the answer:



update 1: fixed Schulte Front View

More details than you could ever want are here:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...47#post2255347

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by stutor

Great question. Several cards aren’t possible with only the backs listed in the original post. Cobb portrait green and Crawford throwing for instance. There are several of these. As HobokenJon said, the 150/350 OMs would most definitely be a requisite part of such a set.

Sonny, like you know anything about a complete 520 set of tough t206 combos

[Ronnie73]

This is why it's easier to just collect all 5000+ different combinations. Years ago, I made lists for 520 card sets with eliminating certain common backs. Back in 2011, there was only a couple of us that were working on a non Piedmont/Sweet Caporal set. It really wasn't that popular. I would say that around five years ago, it became more popular to build the set that way.

[stutor]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Sonny, like you know anything about a complete 520 set of tough t206 combos

Ha. I’ve been at it for a while. This project is a tough row to hoe. This thread really rings true with my collector focus. I don’t try for the ‘ultimate set’ necessarily, but I do try to find the juncture of the rarity curve and the aesthetic curve. If anyone is interested in what a hard back / mostly nice set can be, here is the link to what I have managed to build. If you have cards I need or better examples of what I have, I’m willing to trade or purchase for at or more than fair value.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/146321797@N05/Pu037e41t3

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by stutor

Ha. I’ve been at it for a while. This project is a tough row to hoe. This thread really rings true with my collector focus. I don’t try for the ‘ultimate set’ necessarily, but I do try to find the juncture of the rarity curve and the aesthetic curve. If anyone is interested in what a hard back / mostly nice set can be, here is the link to what I have managed to build. If you have cards I need or better examples of what I have, I’m willing to trade or purchase for at or more than fair value.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/146321797@N05/Pu037e41t3

Sonny, this is the most awesome t206 ever assembled IMO. It needs its own thread. For real.

[MVSNYC]

Sonny, your set is beyond epic; so inspiring. Thank you for sharing it. And most importantly, glad to call you a friend.

[Pat R]

Wow Sonny I knew you had a lot of incredible T206's but as Frank Barone would say "holy crap"!!

[MR RAREBACK]

Wow that set is awesome, I would like to have one similar

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by stutor

Ha. I’ve been at it for a while. This project is a tough row to hoe. This thread really rings true with my collector focus. I don’t try for the ‘ultimate set’ necessarily, but I do try to find the juncture of the rarity curve and the aesthetic curve. If anyone is interested in what a hard back / mostly nice set can be, here is the link to what I have managed to build. If you have cards I need or better examples of what I have, I’m willing to trade or purchase for at or more than fair value.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/146321797@N05/Pu037e41t3

Simply stunning. Your Broad Leaf collection is incredible.

[stutor]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Wow Sonny I knew you had a lot of incredible T206's but as Frank Barone would say "holy crap"!!

That means a ton coming from you Patrick. One of my ‘monster’ cards is a seemingly mundane card with an impressive plate scratch. I included it because of your plate scratch research.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by stutor

That means a ton coming from you Patrick. One of my ‘monster’ cards is a seemingly mundane card with an impressive plate scratch. I included it because of your plate scratch research.

I saw the Lindaman Sonny and I appreciate the compliment. I really like the way you mixed in the Ghosts, overprints, proofs and other oddities.

[RCMcKenzie]

Great collection. I like the T215-1 Matty white cap. Very nice cards.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by stutor

Ha. I’ve been at it for a while. This project is a tough row to hoe. This thread really rings true with my collector focus. I don’t try for the ‘ultimate set’ necessarily, but I do try to find the juncture of the rarity curve and the aesthetic curve. If anyone is interested in what a hard back / mostly nice set can be, here is the link to what I have managed to build. If you have cards I need or better examples of what I have, I’m willing to trade or purchase for at or more than fair value.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/146321797@N05/Pu037e41t3

Beautiful mix of cards Sonny!! My favorite is your Hal Chase Pink Portrait Old Mill, and the Cross Tolstoi comes in at a close second favorite. It was nice to see a few Sweet Caporal No Prints within the set, along with a Yellow/Brown No Print Scrap. Between the errors, scraps, blank backs, and proofs, your collection covers just about everything that could come up in any T206 conversation. You've done an incredible job putting everything together. Your attempt at an epic set is a success.

[HobokenJon]

Bravo, Sonny. Brilliant collection.

[Blunder19]

Sonny this is an epic accomplishment. Great eye appeal and something for everyone with the rare backs, high grades, miscuts, errors/oddities.

This set is an inspiration. Thank you for sharing it and Congratulations!

[MuncieNolePAZ]

That is amazing Sonny. Epic!

Chad

[stutor]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Beautiful mix of cards Sonny!! My favorite is your Hal Chase Pink Portrait Old Mill, and the Cross Tolstoi comes in at a close second favorite. It was nice to see a few Sweet Caporal No Prints within the set, along with a Yellow/Brown No Print Scrap. Between the errors, scraps, blank backs, and proofs, your collection covers just about everything that could come up in any T206 conversation. You've done an incredible job putting everything together. Your attempt at an epic set is a success.

Wow. Thank you. I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable guys on the set. So your kind words are very much appreciated.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Beautiful mix of cards Sonny!! My favorite is your Hal Chase Pink Portrait Old Mill, and the Cross Tolstoi comes in at a close second favorite. It was nice to see a few Sweet Caporal No Prints within the set, along with a Yellow/Brown No Print Scrap. Between the errors, scraps, blank backs, and proofs, your collection covers just about everything that could come up in any T206 conversation. You've done an incredible job putting everything together. Your attempt at an epic set is a success.

Originally Posted by stutor

Wow. Thank you. I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable guys on the set. So your kind words are very much appreciated.

Hi Sonny, I was searching my old posts for something and noticed your post. Thank you. I'm only knowledgeable on T206's because of this forum and it's members. So I have to say Thank You to Leon Luckey for everything he does to keep this website going and for not giving up when he had to switch from the old location and was able to keep all the old "Archive" posts and get them transfered to the new database. I also have to thank Ted Zanidakis and Scot Reader for the information they both shared. Plus so many others from the original group that shared their unknown or one of a kind cards.

Plus this thread needed a boost to the top.