Signed by Rocky Marciano or an elaborate hoax?

[toybulldog]

Currently up for auction, are these items actually signed by Rocky Marciano or are they part of an elaborate hoax? PSA/DNA loa's, notary public witnessed letter of provenance, newspaper article, photos of Marciano with the alledged owner, claims of training used for Walcott, claim of uniqeness by the auction house?

http://www.goldinauctions.com/LotDet...oth-Gloves-Si#

PSA/DNA, can you come on here and show us any supporting evidence for these alledgedly signed 1969 Rocky Marciano items?


Do the above items match up with actual late 1960's Marciano signed items below or is PSA/DNA rewriting both history and the signature of Rocky Marciano?


PSA/DNA, how about some supporting evidence for a few of your other Rocky Marciano's?




Is there an exchange going on between these TPA's and auction houses? Are auction houses, in a sense, giving TPA's a power by insisting items need to be authenticated by them in order to be included in their auctions? Is this an example of a TPA passing a non-authetic item thus adding false value for an auction house?

Estimated value $25,000... bend over

[travrosty]

that looks nothing like a 69 signature and i would love to see exemplars, i think they are relying on the provenance. anyone can have a letter made up.

i doubt it marciano would sign the year next to his name, and it seems to be in sharpie or a black felt pen and they just didnt use them in the 1960's. photos and and gloves that are legit are 99.9 percent signed in ink pen. it just doesnt add up but here they go again.

[travrosty]

i think ken should change the wording. it is confusing as it seems to say that psa authenticated the signed and worn glove.

when psa does not authenticate fight or training worn gloves, only signatures, the claim that it is worn has not been authenticated by psa or anyone and i think the wording should reflect that.

Also, I think Ken should answer to the charges that two of the top boxing autograph guys around strongly believe that this is not marciano's signature.

Ken?

[travrosty]

....

[Exhibitman]

Don't know about the sigs but the blanket statement re the availability of permanent ink felt tips is wrong. Permanent ink felt tips were invented in the 1950s and were widely marketed under the "Magic Marker" brand by the early 1960s. They were state of the art for the advertising industry by the late 1960s and sold in stationary stores. My mom was in advertising at the time and I recall going to her office as a little boy and being set up in the art department to play with the hundreds of markers. And trust me, I know from experience that they wrote on everything: walls, doors, floors...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by travrosty

that looks nothing like a 69 signature and i would love to see exemplars, i think they are relying on the provenance. anyone can have a letter made up.

i doubt it marciano would sign the year next to his name, and it seems to be in sharpie or a black felt pen and they just didnt use them in the 1960's. photos and and gloves that are legit are 99.9 percent signed in ink pen. it just doesnt add up but here they go again.

I know nothing about Marciano or boxing signatures like you guys do, but love your thoughts on these. But maybe whoever got the "Marciano" wrote the date next to the signature. From signatures of anyone that have dated the item, this kind of seems off to the side from the signature, so maybe the original owner dated it to remember. Usually if the signer dates an item, it's usually closer to the signature...just my thoughts, but excited to see where this goes.

Brent

[RichardSimon]

I don't profess to be an expert on boxing but I am familiar with certain signatures. I must say that the index card with a purported Marciano signature sure looks very different from the authentic Marciano's that I have seen.
It is appropriate that it has its own personal casket.

[D. Bergin]

Jeez, if I had a nickel for every call I've gotten over the years from somebody claiming they (or their uncles, cousins, grandfathers, fathers) were buddies with Rocky and they've got the gloves (or sparring gloves) from the Walcott, Charles, Louis fights..................I'd have at least a couple bucks.


Rocky must have had a stash of gloves he gave out to anybody who asked. We all know he was a bit paranoid AND eccentric about certain things.

I wouldn't touch those gloves with a fishing pole. That index card looks horrible to. A Lou Marciano special, perhaps?

[JimStinson]

The index card is a scribbled Rocky GRAZIANO , former middleweight champ etc etc , the original collector appeared to have not been able to read it either and just pasted a pic of Marciano next to it and then who ever slabbed it just took his word for it

[Exhibitman]

What do you think JSA had to say about this one?

[JimStinson]

The white image above that on the white glove appears to be signed by Charley Goldman , Rocky's trainer.
When people would write to Rocky while he was training for a fight which was almost always Goldman would sign the stuff for him so as not to distract him from fight preparation. Goldman would sometimes do the same thing when things would be passed into the dressing room or gym. It was their job to see him CRANK out "SIT-UPS" not autographs

[JimStinson]

Like this postcard signed by Goldman, Rocky did not sign this

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The white image above that on the white glove appears to be signed by Charley Goldman , Rocky's trainer.
When people would write to Rocky while he was training for a fight which was almost always Goldman would sign the stuff for him so as not to distract him from fight preparation. Goldman would sometimes do the same thing when things would be passed into the dressing room or gym. It was their job to see him CRANK out "SIT-UPS" not autographs

When you read this from Jim you know that PSA keeps showing us the fact that they have nobody who knows boxing.

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Like this postcard signed by Goldman, Rocky did not sign this

Agreed, now folks compare the signed postcard to the signed gloves in post #1. Charley Goldman signed the gloves also yet they were authenticated by PSA/DNA as Rocky Marciano signatures, went to completion and sold for big money through an online auction house.



PSA/DNA letter signed by company president Joe Orlando.

Goldinauctions.com, this is who you are putting your faith in to authenticate your Rocky Marciano auction items. Are they qualified?

I can understand how you would want the signatures to be authentic but can the evidence in post #1 be ignored? Press this PSA/DNA company to supply you with any exemplars/evidence to support your items legitimacy. As a 20+ year collector of only vintage boxing autographs I can assure you it does not exist.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Don't know about the sigs but the blanket statement re the availability of permanent ink felt tips is wrong. Permanent ink felt tips were invented in the 1950s and were widely marketed under the "Magic Marker" brand by the early 1960s. They were state of the art for the advertising industry by the late 1960s and sold in stationary stores. My mom was in advertising at the time and I recall going to her office as a little boy and being set up in the art department to play with the hundreds of markers. And trust me, I know from experience that they wrote on everything: walls, doors, floors...

pay attention, i didnt say they werent available, i said they just werent used for signing autographs. people just didnt think of it. sharpies were invented in the 1960's but were hardly ever used until the 1980's

[travrosty]

i conversed with ken and he changed the wording and he is generally concerned about the glove and wants accuracy above everything else. many times in the past i have been brushed off by auction houses, but not by ken.

[RichardSimon]

I turn down about half the items offered to me to authenticate because they are signatures that I am not familiar with and I cannot render an opinion on them.
But the money grubbers at PSA would never do that, they prove it every time they look at a boxing autograph.
This is hardly the first time they have screwed up boxing.
Hey PSA - just say no. Your reputation is getting bashed here, was it worth it?

[JimStinson]

I personally was not trying to bash anyone, In fact everyone makes mistakes.
But the information I mentioned in this thread has been out there for a LONG LONG time and if ANYONE is going to charge good money for an expert opinion take an extra few minutes to do it right

[cubsfan-budman]

If I pay my CPA to do my taxes, I don't pay him to guess.

I know there's some art to authenticating, but if there's any question, they should pass and not take the money (or at least less, to pay for their time).

The examples given above may be chosen to "lead", but even a novice would realize that the "authenticated" examples are trash. It's particularly evident when comparing them to Marciano's trainer's version of the sig.

[toybulldog]

I gave PSA/DNA an invite to participate in the discussion, perhaps we'll get some answers. It certainly doesn't hurt to ask?

[toybulldog]

As I'm taking a closer look I notice the "M" in "Mario" in the letter of provenance and the "M" in "Mario" in the inscribed photo are way too close for comfort. The "R" in the inscribed photo is consistent to the "R" on the signed gloves. I think good ol' Mario himself is a more likely canidate to be the signer of the gloves than is Rocky Marciano.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

I gave PSA/DNA an invite to participate in the discussion, perhaps we'll get some answers. It certainly doesn't hurt to ask?

Are you holding your breath, Mark?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are you holding your breath, Mark?

If he has held his breath, then play taps for him.
It is obviously a corporate alphabet soup decision not to engage in discussions here.

[JimStinson]

Maybe try writing in care of his fan club

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Maybe try writing in care of his fan club

orlando wont come on here. too busy stonewalling


they just dont know how to say no over there at professional sports authenticators/ dna.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Maybe try writing in care of his fan club

.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Maybe try writing in care of his fan club

Maybe if you "Knock 3 times" on his forehead, He will come?

"twice on the pipe", "means he ain't gonna show"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emvVDC1-bwI

[toybulldog]

Crickets so far. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I'm hard pressed to think of a more inconsistent autograph that has been passed and certified by a TPA. I'm sure they're out there but this one is definitely in my top five.

Was this the process they used to determine the Marciano signed gloves are authentic or is it just a favortism shown to a certain submitter with no authentication process used at all?



Perhaps they can make one of their videos showing how this process is carried out and use the Marciano signed gloves as an example?

[Sean1125]

PSA... Taking responsibility?

Never seen those in the same sentence before without something in between them.

I've spoken with Mantle/Dimmagio/Williams/Killebrew's ex-agent Jerry Romolt (he lives just a couple minutes away from me), on more than plenty of occasions and what he has to say about the company (and mainly Mr. Orlando) isn't anything positive, he seemed to know much more of their "unexposed" BS than I do/did.

[travrosty]

the fact that the signed photo looks like the glove and the capital R in Rocky isnt anything what is suppose to be a late 60's autograph of marciano just cements for me.

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the fact that the signed photo looks like the glove and the capital R in Rocky isnt anything what is suppose to be a late 60's autograph of marciano just cements for me.

I just went through each and every year from 1948 to 1969 and could not find a similar "R" in any example. Not only could I not find a similar "R" in his signature, I could not find a similar "R" in any of his writings.

The notorized letter of provenance states:

"I remember Rocky telling me that he was going to sign the gloves to me so that everyone would know that they were really his sparring gloves from 1951 that he used to get ready for his championship bout with "Jersey" Joe Walcott in 1952, in which Rocky became the new World Heavyweight Boxing Champion. Rocky signed both sets of gloves to me personally, a total of (4) signatures".



Does it state he witnessed the gloves signed or that they were signed in his presence? Could the owners beginning statement "I remember Rocky telling me that he was going to sign the gloves to me" be an indication that he didn't have a clear recollection and might be mistaken?

If PSA/DNA doesn't want to come on here and shed some light on this peculiar item is there anyone who can come up with a similar exemplar or similar handwriting to the inscription?

Remember, this item is being sold as:

Rocky Marciano 1951 Used Sparring Gloves For "Jersey" Joe Walcott Championship Fight - Both Gloves Signed PSA/DNA and Notarized Letter of Provenance

And:

Our research indicates this is the only pair of worn Marciano gloves ever signed and authenticated by PSA/DNA.

And:

Finding PSA/DNA authenticated signed and worn gloves from Marciano, well this is the first.

And:

While the notarized letter mentions Walcott, that Marciano fought Joe Louis on 10/27/51 so it is likely these gloves were used for training in that fight as well.

Just an all-around irresponsible listing by this auction house. There is no clear proof that these are training gloves worn by Marciano other than someone said that Rocky Marciano said. And is the comment in the listing "that Marciano fought Joe Louis on 10/27/51 so it is likely these gloves were used for training in that fight as well." just an example of how this items value is trying to be enhanced? I'm not doubting this individual might have had a relationship with Rocky Marciano but IMO it is being played upon big time here.

Did this TPA authenticate this autograph without one shred of supporting evidence just to enhance the value of this item?

Did this TPA use the process they claim in post #28? Can they walk us through it using this auction lot as an example? Or is that a false statement on their web site?

FBI, Bureau of Consumer Protection can you see how worthless items could and sometimes do get sold for $25,000 or more?

Again, PSA/DNA or anyone else, feel free to comment or add any evidence that supports this items legitimacy.

Mark Ogren
Sch'dy, NY

[JimStinson]

POP QUIZ: What was Rocky Marciano's preferred boxing brand ?

[JimStinson]

Just spoke with Ken Goldin and no question in my mind he wants to and is trying to do the right thing. There ARE valid points regarding usage and provenance. I was asked for and gave my opinion regarding the handwriting on the glove. Its now up to him and everyone else involved to connect the dots. Which it appears he is being more than diligent in doing. Cheers !
_____________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Before any more WHINING ...lets all get up and do this tomorrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v04bsWFS8ng

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

POP QUIZ: What was Rocky Marciano's preferred boxing brand ?

Whatever do you mean?







Though, just to stoke controversy, here he is wearing Frager trunks:

[D. Bergin]

Not to be a stick in the mud, and it really has no bearing on THESE gloves...............but......

It's not really unheard of for Rocky to wear Everlast.

[JimStinson]

Absoutely correct

[Exhibitman]

Doesn't it look like the ref in the fight photo is running away?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Doesn't it look like the ref in the fight photo is running away?

He's not getting between Rocky and his flying elbows.

For someone who had a lot of respect for Joe Louis, it sure doesn't stop him from clocking him in the grill with a stray elbow.

Makes you wonder what Rocky was capable of if he DIDN'T like you.

[RichardSimon]

If anyone has any Hank Aaron autographs from around 1954 please post them.
Thanks.

[dade305cane]

I hope I did this right, anyway I need to know what you guys think of the signature on the ad I know it is not typical of Rocky but I see some similarities.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by dade305cane

I hope I did this right, anyway I need to know what you guys think of the signature on the ad I know it is not typical of Rocky but I see some similarities.

please start a new thread and post picture.

[toybulldog]

Need opinions on my Marciano signed Holland Furnace ad

I hope I did this right, anyway I need to know what you guys think of the signature on the ad I know it is not typical of Rocky but I see some similarities.

If you're referring to the one shown in post #35 of this thread and pictured below left along with another similar one below right, no these are not authentic and are a common forged version. Similar to the one in the middle "authenticated" by guess who? This company offers letters of authenticity but they do not authenticate autographs.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

If you're referring to the one shown in post #35 of this thread and pictured below left along with another similar one below right, no these are not authentic and are a common forged version. Similar to the one in the middle "authenticated" by guess who? This company offers letters of authenticity but they do not authenticate autographs.

In agreement. This type of supposed Marciano autograph never passed muster and I never liked it and wouldn't authenticate it as real. but abc company did so s.g. must be right and the rest of us wrong.

[earlywynnfan]

Travis, I'm wondering if you got a chance to see the "authenticators" thread? I'm waiting for you to denounce that ANL site as utter garbage, since it so obviously is.

Ken

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Travis, I'm wondering if you got a chance to see the "authenticators" thread? I'm waiting for you to denounce that ANL site as utter garbage, since it so obviously is.

Ken

Respectfully, you are falling for their games, i had nothing to do with it, they brought it here. why single me out if they are not saying i am guilty? They can play games. I have boxing autographs to blog about. Did they send the same demand to all of the hundreds of members of net54? why not?

[Exhibitman]

The Holland Furnace one I posted in #35 was rejected by PSA/DNA. I returned it to a seller in SoCal for a refund.

[toybulldog]

The Holland Furnace one I posted in #35 was rejected by PSA/DNA. I returned it to a seller in SoCal for a refund.

These forged versions seem to be good for some submitters but not good for others. I would hope that all submitters would be treated equally with no favortism, go figure?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

These forged versions seem to be good for some submitters but not good for others. I would hope that all submitters would be treated equally with no favortism, go figure?

If you got the name and connections it gets passed. if you don't, then even real signatures get failed. it depends on who you are and if they feel your business is worth keeping. If this one is failed and the other ones gets slabbed, why can't they make up their mind? Because it's not really about the autograph.

[toybulldog]

If you got the name and connections it gets passed. if you don't, then even real signatures get failed. it depends on who you are and if they feel your business is worth keeping. If this one is failed and the other ones gets slabbed, why can't they make up their mind? Because it's not really about the autograph.

Any company that shells out that kind of utter garbage I'd say is worth denouncing.