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  #1  
Old 02-01-2022, 09:57 AM
Johnphotoman Johnphotoman is offline
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Default Photograph Authentication: Am I right or Wrong?

Question on Photograph Authentication Services. Type or classifications 1,2,3,4. from PSA. How is this for confusion? I have over 100 baseball photos, that I have been told are type 3, and there is not much value in them because most people want Type 1. Ok, this is not about the value, but one day who knows. Now for sure, the photos are from the 1940s 1950s. The images are the 1940S on most. See my post 1/28/2022...vintage baseball photographs, for info on photos. Stay with me, Type 3 because my photos have what is called, facsimile signature or name on them.
Type 3 are a 2nd generation photograph developed from a duplicate negative. Again a duplicate negative, and not the subject, not the photo but a second negative. Why, do I say this...for my photos they would take the subject, the picture of the ballplayer, and add the name to the photo take a new picture of it thereby creating a second negative. Notice the new picture are not from a duplicate negative, but an original. By the way, all duplicate negatives are of inferior quality to the original, this is why Type 3 is of lesser value.
Type one versions are 1st generation photos, developed from an original negative within two years of the subject on the photo. So I then can say my photos are type1. Because they are a first-generation negative, not a duplicate negative. It does not matter that it was a picture of a picture, as so as you take a new picture and print it out with the original negative within two years, it then becomes a Type 1 ... Am I wrong or Right? Thanks, John.
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  #2  
Old 02-01-2022, 10:14 AM
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Yes.
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  #3  
Old 02-01-2022, 12:14 PM
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No,

Based on PSA's explanations, a photo of a photo IS a duplicate negative. So Type III......or type IV if created more then two years after the original image was taken.

It's all pretty silly and arbitrary anyways. The idea that any Type III is always inferior to a Type I, is pure bunk. Most publicity and promotional studio shots and premiums from the first half of the 20th century are not technically Type I's, although they are often described as such.

Many are sought after by collectors.

The work done on them is often far superior then plenty of Type I shots that you might see offered from press archives.

As always it depends on the subject of the photo, the quality of the print, the age of the print and many other factors as far as value or desirability goes.
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Old 02-01-2022, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
No,

Based on PSA's explanations, a photo of a photo IS a duplicate negative. So Type III......or type IV if created more then two years after the original image was taken.

It's all pretty silly and arbitrary anyways. The idea that any Type III is always inferior to a Type I, is pure bunk. Most publicity and promotional studio shots and premiums from the first half of the 20th century are not technically Type I's, although they are often described as such.

Many are sought after by collectors.

The work done on them is often far superior then plenty of Type I shots that you might see offered from press archives.

As always it depends on the subject of the photo, the quality of the print, the age of the print and many other factors as far as value or desirability goes.
Yes, I agree on being pretty silly, that's why the question...But wait what I am saying... the photos I have were all done at the same time as the originals without the names on them., and within the two-year window. That is to say the original and the ones I have were done at the same time or again within the window of two years, from that I say Type 1and, not type 3> Thanks, John. PS question for you... would you say I have type 1 or 3. There are type 3 because someone added the name...common now!

Last edited by Johnphotoman; 02-01-2022 at 12:33 PM. Reason: add to
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  #5  
Old 02-01-2022, 12:43 PM
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Default duplicate negetive,

Type I A 1st generation photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type II A photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Type III A 2nd generation photograph, developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type IV A 2nd generation photograph (or 3rd or later generation), developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during a later period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Type 1 photographs are the most desirable and valuable of the four photograph types because of their vintage and originality.

Many Type 4's were issued after 1970, either for latter-era publication of earlier original images or for the general public consumption.

Duplicate negatives are produced by taking a photograph of an existing original photograph thereby creating a second negative that is of inferior quality to the original

All photograph types are collectible; a Type 3 photograph of a Hall of Famer Mickey Mantle may be worth considerably more than a Type 1 photograph of a common player from the 1920's.


Let's say in 1947 I am a photographer and have a new project to take pictures of baseball players. The person who hired wants the names on photos. I go and take said photos, print them out. Now I will have to add the names to photos, much like the ones I have. The only way to do that was to make a photostat of the original photo and add a name, now you make a new negative and print out the new photo with the name on them. But these would be a Type 3 photo and not a Type 1. Do you see where all this going?

I forgot to say that I did not mean to imply this was the only way to put names on photos, but this is what all the people I have talked to said it was done. Had to use 2nd generation negative. But I know better, as some had aready said. Thanks John

Last edited by Johnphotoman; 02-02-2022 at 04:20 AM. Reason: add to
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  #6  
Old 02-01-2022, 01:11 PM
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Just because there is text on the image, it doesn't necessarily mean it was from a duplicate negative. The text could be written directly to a glass negative during the processing of the image.
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Old 02-01-2022, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
Just because there is text on the image, it doesn't necessarily mean it was from a duplicate negative. The text could be written directly to a glass negative during the processing of the image.
Exactly, but all the so could experts I have talked to want to say they are Type 3 because of the text on the photos... please look at my post about this and tell me what you think, i could use all the help I could get. Thanks, John.
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  #8  
Old 02-01-2022, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnphotoman View Post
Exactly, but all the so could experts I have talked to want to say they are Type 3 because of the text on the photos... please look at my post about this and tell me what you think, i could use all the help I could get. Thanks, John.
Just because a duplicate negative was used to print a photo within the (arbitrary) 2 years does not erase the fact that it was a duplicate negative.
There is no way that a photographer (or his boss) would alter an original negative and risk losing it by screwing up while adding text.
It sounds like you are not satisfied with expert information and just you want someone to tell you that they are Type 1 photos.

They are all Type 1 photos. Happy now?
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Old 02-01-2022, 06:11 PM
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Sometimes photos with text can be Type 1 by the PSA standard, it has to be evaluated on a photo by photo basis. There were techniques that could be done to negatives to create a finished product that looks like it "should" be a Type 3, but it is still off the original negative. Same with composites. Underwood and Underwood used trays for 4x5 inch negatives that could lay two of them side by side and crease a two-part composite photograph each of which is a Type 1 photo, Bain had a similar device. Saying everything with text or writing on the front is a Type 3 is generally safe, but there are exceptions to the rule.

Modern photography (when you start to get into digital and color technologies of the 1990's and early 2000's) make the debate between Type 1-2-3-4 of the vintage era look like a cake walk!
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  #10  
Old 02-01-2022, 06:24 PM
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Default Happy Now.

No. Not happy at all, it never was about what Type of photos 1,2 3,... I have,! But what kind of photos do I have. Where did they come from, who was the photographer, and more? This is all about the hunt, but I was trying to make a point...every expert I talked to, would say they are Type 3 and just blow me off.
It is like if they are not Type 1, they did not want to talk. Ok, all but one. But I have to say, he finally went there. If I ever do decide to sell, I want as much money as I can get. And that would mean Type 1. I would like to know what I have over if they are Type 1 or not. Yes, I have a very good idea, but I do not want to say on account I do not want to taint what others think, or even know. I believe it's what you like over Type 1,2 or 3.
But every conversation just pulls in what type there are, and not what they are. I would bet if I could prove to the experts that I have spoken to, that my collection is all Type 1...they would take more interest in them.
I started this research back in 1976/77...I want to tell you people were rude back then, many wouldn't even give you the time of day..Today there are many people who are willing to share their knowledge and be very happy to doing so. Thanks to all, John, Oh, and yes just for the record they are Type 1. At least what I know about them.

Last edited by Johnphotoman; 02-01-2022 at 06:32 PM. Reason: mage changes
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2022, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prewarsports View Post
Sometimes photos with text can be Type 1 by the PSA standard, it has to be evaluated on a photo by photo basis. There were techniques that could be done to negatives to create a finished product that looks like it "should" be a Type 3, but it is still off the original negative. Same with composites. Underwood and Underwood used trays for 4x5 inch negatives that could lay two of them side by side and crease a two-part composite photograph each of which is a Type 1 photo, Bain had a similar device. Saying everything with text or writing on the front is a Type 3 is generally safe, but there are exceptions to the rule.

Modern photography (when you start to get into digital and color technologies of the 1990's and early 2000's) make the debate between Type 1-2-3-4 of the vintage era look like a cake walk!
I could not agree more. This is some of the proof I have, in the production of the print. In my opinion, they are not type 3 because of the text on photos. But I spoke to quite a few that just dump what I have into type 3 just because they have text on photos. This is bad for collecting. I must also apologize I did not mean to make this about how I want them to be Type 1. If anyone will go back and see my other post they would see where I was going with all this. I am sorry. Thanks to all John.

Last edited by Johnphotoman; 02-02-2022 at 04:24 AM.
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  #12  
Old 02-02-2022, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnphotoman View Post
No. Not happy at all, it never was about what Type of photos 1,2 3,... I have,! But what kind of photos do I have. Where did they come from, who was the photographer, and more? This is all about the hunt, but I was trying to make a point...every expert I talked to, would say they are Type 3 and just blow me off.
It is like if they are not Type 1, they did not want to talk. Ok, all but one. But I have to say, he finally went there. If I ever do decide to sell, I want as much money as I can get. And that would mean Type 1. I would like to know what I have over if they are Type 1 or not. Yes, I have a very good idea, but I do not want to say on account I do not want to taint what others think, or even know. I believe it's what you like over Type 1,2 or 3.
But every conversation just pulls in what type there are, and not what they are. I would bet if I could prove to the experts that I have spoken to, that my collection is all Type 1...they would take more interest in them.
I started this research back in 1976/77...I want to tell you people were rude back then, many wouldn't even give you the time of day..Today there are many people who are willing to share their knowledge and be very happy to doing so. Thanks to all, John, Oh, and yes just for the record they are Type 1. At least what I know about them.
If you can't get any accepted photo expert to say they are Type 1 you will never be able to sell them as Type 1. Sounds like you have been trying for 40+ years to prove they are Type 1 with zero success. There is likely a reason for that.

Just like if I get an autograph in person and know it is authentic but the autograph experts will not authenticate it, I cannot hope to sell it for its real value.
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Old 02-02-2022, 12:28 PM
Johnphotoman Johnphotoman is offline
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It is not about type 1 photos, it is about how when I do talk to some people who say they are experts in the field say- they are Type 3, and right away the conversation stops. And I do not mean to say everyone over the years has said they are type 3.

I was just pointing out and this is for all those who have said they are Type 3, have said when you have text on the photo it becomes a Type 3 because they had to use a second negative to make the photo print, all because of the name on the photo.

I did miss speak on this, there are a hand full who have said they just do not know, but think they could go as type 1. And point out that the text on the photos does not automatically make them Type 3. I just was trying to say when I talked to some experts, they were not too happy to talk about them unless they themselves thought they were Type 1.

I believe what I have are team issue promotional photos, made from an original photo. Which used a different way to make a photo print than what so many experts have said.

It's about how people lump everything that looks alike into one category. And why we should also investigate on our own. Because sometimes even the experts are wrong. I went about the question all wrong. Thanks to all, John.

Last edited by Johnphotoman; 02-02-2022 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:55 PM
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Hi John,
The photos are cool and collectible regardless of what "Type".
The real question that you need to ask yourself is:
What do I want to do with them?
If your goal is to sell them, do so without losing your focus on the fact that they are collectible and cool!
Good luck as you determine your next steps.
Scott
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Old 02-02-2022, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
Just because there is text on the image, it doesn't necessarily mean it was from a duplicate negative. The text could be written directly to a glass negative during the processing of the image.

Correct. I was going to say that. The OP should post some images.

Also, age is also important to value. And old second-generation photo can have vale.
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Old 02-02-2022, 02:31 PM
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I just looked at the other thread. They are likely type III. It's a nice collection, and photos with images used on the cards should bring a premium.
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Old 02-02-2022, 05:01 PM
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I just looked at the other thread. They are likely type III. It's a nice collection, and photos with images used on the cards should bring a premium.
John,
I know you are new to net54...
David's expertise when it comes to photos is certainly one of the most educated on net54.
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Old 02-02-2022, 06:50 PM
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Thanks to all, I am not selling now, but someday. Right now I am putting together photos with the bb cards that match. It is a lot of fun. I just think they are cool. All I wanted from the people I talked to was...what were they, who took them, and in what year, not what type of value they have.

Yes, value always comes into play, but it is about the fun of the hunt. That being said, I have people who have first knowledge about collection these..
and said they are, either Premium Press Photos, Team Issue Photo, Player Picture Pack Photo issued sold at Stadium. I Was told that they were not mass-produced. And that not many were produced, a limited number making them rare.

The years were most likely the 1940s and 1950s because of the style. I have even purchased some more photos like the ones I have that are not in my collection. They are hard to find. I can find baseball cards that match the photos much easier. Thanks John.
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Old 02-02-2022, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcy View Post
I just looked at the other thread. They are likely type III. It's a nice collection, and photos with images used on the cards should bring a premium.
Thanks for all the info, but I still do not understand what makes them type 3. I just want to understand the types of photos at this point. Because if it is the text on them, who am I to believe, the one who says the text on photos makes them a type 3. Or the one who says just because there is text on photos does not make them type 3.

If it is age, well they have been in my family since 1965. And I have had people tell me some of the photos- are definitely from the 1940s because they have collected them first hand, around that time, or someone in their family did pick them up in the 1940s. So what makes them type 3? Thanks John.
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Old 02-02-2022, 09:01 PM
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I don't doubt their age, and assumed they were vintage. Type III means they're period.

As I've seen these types of photos before, I assumed they were the type where you bought them or the negatives from a catalog, and the negatives were likey copy negatives.

I actually don't know, and was just glancing at the photos. Is it possible they or some of them are Type 1. Yes, that's possible.

Last edited by drcy; 02-02-2022 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 02-02-2022, 09:19 PM
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Also realize that your photos appear to be commercial items-- via catalog or whatever. Most commercial baseball photos are type III. N172 Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas, etc.

So for commercial items, advertising baseball photo postcards, and photographic trading cards and premiums, being type III is the norm. By the same token that Topps cards are lithographic copies of photos, and the 1952 and 53 Topps aren't original paintings but litho copies of paintings

Last edited by drcy; 02-02-2022 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 02-03-2022, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
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Also realize that your photos appear to be commercial items-- via catalog or whatever. Most commercial baseball photos are type III. N172 Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas, etc.

So for commercial items, advertising baseball photo postcards, and photographic trading cards and premiums, being type III is the norm. By the same token that Topps cards are lithographic copies of photos, and the 1952 and 53 Topps aren't original paintings but litho copies of paintings
David,

My response in the other thread.

These were not limited to baseball. There were also Olympians - Bob Mathias and Barney Ewell come to mind. I believe there were also some made for football players. You are incorrect in calling them autographs. It is the athletes name printed in a readable cursive/script style. Most of them were mass produced photos for sale to the public. I believe you could purchase them from the back of Sporting News and other publications. Yes, they were originally printed around the period that the photos were taken however, I have seen newer versions of these probably/possibly printed in the 1970's or 1980's. Without feeling the paper it is impossible to tell. I had, at one time, a copy of the Ewell photo autographed by him. It was this style but probably a later reprint.
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Old 02-03-2022, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
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David,

My response in the other thread.

These were not limited to baseball. There were also Olympians - Bob Mathias and Barney Ewell come to mind. I believe there were also some made for football players. You are incorrect in calling them autographs. It is the athletes name printed in a readable cursive/script style. Most of them were mass produced photos for sale to the public. I believe you could purchase them from the back of Sporting News and other publications. Yes, they were originally printed around the period that the photos were taken however, I have seen newer versions of these probably/possibly printed in the 1970's or 1980's. Without feeling the paper it is impossible to tell. I had, at one time, a copy of the Ewell photo autographed by him. It was this style but probably a later reprint.
Football players, yes I think I have 4 football players in the collection, and they are the same as the baseball cards. I did not think to add them here, because this is about baseball. I will try and post them. I am new to all this, so still getting the hang of how it all works. This is the second time someone has said, Type 3 period pieces, what does this term mean? I am guessing a Type 3 photo, produced in the year or period they were taken. Thanks for all the great info.
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Old 02-03-2022, 06:24 AM
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Default Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas,

Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas, are these photos or printed items? Because printed items use a totally different way to produce the item, viva...halftone printing and not right from the negative. Photos like the ones I have were made from a negative. So it makes sense to me the above, would be Type 3. But then if they are printed items, they would not be called a Type, type classifications are for photos. So the above must be made from a negative, thereby it becomes a photo. Is this right.? And they would be Type 3 because a second negative was used to make them? Thanks, John.
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Old 02-03-2022, 07:18 AM
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Default two possibilities as to the mystery baseball photos

: I have nailed it down to two possibilities as to the mystery baseball photos. One is, team issue/Player Picture Pack Photo issued through Stadiums. These would be Type 1, made right from the original negative. And people have said they or someone in their family had acquired theirs right from the stadium or bought them from a dealer who said thats what they were, all around the time period of the 1940s-1950. And they match the ones in the collection to the T, same style text, name on photos. I will say this qualifies as an eyewitness, who has firsthand knowledge of the photos.

The second one is commercial photos, viva magazines like sporting News, etc. And again all around the time period 1940s/1950s. These would be Type 3 period pieces, meaning-photo was made the year it was taken, only from a second negative. Not first-hand knowledge, only people who have said-I have seen ones as you have in these magazines. No one has said, yes I have seen the exact one in these magazines. I call this hearsay, not to say it is not very good info, but just not an eyewitness. The hunt continues to find out, once- and- for- all, which one is right. And then maybe I can find out who the photographer was. Thanks for all the great info, John.
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Old 02-03-2022, 07:59 AM
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The simplest way to think about it is as follows:

The original photo taken at the scene of the image is a Type I of the scene depicted.

Your photo is a Type III of the scene depicted, as it is a photo of the original photo. Your photo is however a Type I photo of the original photo, just not the scene depicted.

As collectors are interested mainly in type 1s of the scene depicted and not type 1s of of photos of that scene, the market, rightly or wrongly, will always value yours at a lesser value.
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Old 02-03-2022, 10:00 AM
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Just to add another layer of confusion onto this. Because these were generally commercial photos sold in Sporting publications by various outfits over a large period of time...

....even if you think it's somehow a Type I, there's a very good chance it's a Type II...and if you think it's a Type III, there's an even better chance it's a Type IV.

I'd explain further, but I don't think I have the energy.

Just enjoy your collection while you can, for whatever it may or may not be.
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Old 02-03-2022, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael B View Post
David,

My response in the other thread.

These were not limited to baseball. There were also Olympians - Bob Mathias and Barney Ewell come to mind. I believe there were also some made for football players. You are incorrect in calling them autographs. It is the athletes name printed in a readable cursive/script style. Most of them were mass produced photos for sale to the public. I believe you could purchase them from the back of Sporting News and other publications. Yes, they were originally printed around the period that the photos were taken however, I have seen newer versions of these probably/possibly printed in the 1970's or 1980's. Without feeling the paper it is impossible to tell. I had, at one time, a copy of the Ewell photo autographed by him. It was this style but probably a later reprint.

Yup, Boxers, wrestlers, etc...also.
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Old 02-03-2022, 01:12 PM
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Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas, are these photos or printed items? Because printed items use a totally different way to produce the item, viva...halftone printing and not right from the negative. Photos like the ones I have were made from a negative. So it makes sense to me the above, would be Type 3. But then if they are printed items, they would not be called a Type, type classifications are for photos. So the above must be made from a negative, thereby it becomes a photo. Is this right.? And they would be Type 3 because a second negative was used to make them? Thanks, John.

Old Judges, Gypsie Queens, T200 Fatimas are actual photographs. Many 1800s trading cards were actual photographs. Most other baseball cards through the years are ink-and-printing-press lithographs.
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Old 02-03-2022, 03:13 PM
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drcy drcy is offline
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To be honest, I think the OP may be overthinking this. These are old collectible commercially sold photos of baseball players. I don't think you should be putting too much time and frustration into what type they are.

They're vintage collectible photos.

Last edited by drcy; 02-03-2022 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 02-03-2022, 03:30 PM
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To be honest, I think the OP may be overthinking this. These are old collectible commercially sold photos of baseball players. I think you should be putting too much time and frustration into what type they are.

They're vintage collectible photos.
Exactly!!!
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Old 02-03-2022, 09:45 PM
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To be honest, I think the OP may be overthinking this. These are old collectible commercially sold photos of baseball players. I think you should be putting too much time and frustration into what type they are.

They're vintage collectible photos.
David,

I was hoping he would reach that conclusion by what I posted. I completely agree.
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Old 02-04-2022, 05:51 AM
Johnphotoman Johnphotoman is offline
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David,

I was hoping he would reach that conclusion by what I posted. I completely agree.
Yes, I understand they are Type 3 photos, the truth is that does not matter. The point I wanted to make was, When I asked what I had, most people would say what type of photo, and not what I had. And then when I asked why...Type 3?... The only answer would be because of the names on them.

So I set out to understand how just the text on the photos would make them type 3. Because you can print a photo with names on them right from the original negative, without having to make a second negative. And how the conversation would stop when I asked why, as soon as Type 3 will come up...that was the end, the conversation stop. Thanks John.
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Old 02-04-2022, 05:53 AM
Johnphotoman Johnphotoman is offline
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Hi all, thanks for all the great information, it is because of this information I now have another question, about the Jackie Robinson photo I have. So I am going to do another post. Titled: Jackie Robinson, the photograph used to produce 1952 Berk Ross Baseball Card? Please keep all the information coming. Thanks, John.
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