BBCX wrapping and what it exactly represents..

[55koufax]

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

[Jason19th]

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. What is important however that BCE cannot and doesn’t claim to be making any statement about the condition of the cards in the pack. There is a YouTube channel called Jabs Family were they shop for cards and open wax (with slots sold to buyers prior to opening). He recently bought a box of 1972 Opechee (sp?). At some point the box must have been in heat or humidity and the gum pretty much killed most of the cards. The YouTuber freaked out and started talking about how disappointed he was with BCE and went on about how he should get some sort of refund. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

[Orioles1954]

Your beef should be with BBCE.

[Jason19th]

Interesting

When you say that score was never factory sealed do you mean that there was never even any adhesive or tape keeping the box closed. If that’s the case I don’t see how you could possible certify something as unsearched

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

That is very odd. According to their site they only deal in sealed packs. I have seen them do vending boxes and sets but only when they come from a sealed case.

[JollyElm]

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end)? Hope so.

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end

No I did not film myself, nor should I ever think this step be a necessity. I still have two BBCX wrapped and unopened boxes ready for the film shoot!

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

[55koufax]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.

It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.

The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.



It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.



The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.

I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

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[55koufax]

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

Edit: read your early posts wrong and incorrectly lambasted you. Sorry about that.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 55koufax

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

That's good on them. More than likely the buyer thought it was legit, and BBCX definitely thought it was good.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

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I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

Louie the crook. He was as bad with 85 topps if you remember

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

I believe it because I bought some 84 racks in the late 90s. I bought 6. Guess what? 3 Mattinglys and 2 Straws. It wasn’t a coincidence, whoever sold those to the guy I got them from probably knew.


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[dragonwagon9080]

I do not like how BBCE handles Tiffany sets. They will shrink wrap the plain outer box, instead of the Tiffany box. Now I can’t see all the color and beauty of the set box design or the individual set # on the bottom. All I see is a plain boring cardboard box. I get it if they did this for the 1989 set bc it is already shrink wrapped, but the rest...


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[cmcclelland]

I don't visit this forum as often as I used to, so I just saw this thread. I wanted to go back to the original post and make some comments.

First, I want to be totally transparent and state that I have done a lot of business with both Steve Hart at BBCE and Brian at REA. I believe they are two of the most honest people I have ever done business with in my 40+ years in this hobby. You simply don't find very many people with their kind of integrity in this hobby. I also believe that Steve Hart is without question the foremost expert as it relates to unopened material.

As far as the 1989 Score Football Set goes, I wanted to shed some additional light on this. With factory sets like this, Steve Hart has three different designations that he provides: (1) Factory Set; (2) Tape Intact; and (3) From a Sealed Case. Obviously, the Tape Intact designation only applies to sets such as Topps Traded sets that sometimes came from the factory with a piece of scotch tape applied as a seal to the individual set. As previously mentioned, From A Sealed Case means that the Factory Set came from a Factory Case that was still sealed as it came from the factory and then opened by Steve and wrapped as "FASC".

I actually own several 1989 Score football sets that are BBCE wrapped with the designation "FASC", meaning they came out of a sealed case and were immediately wrapped without being opened or searched. If I were to sell these sets, I would get a significant premium over the price of a set that was simply BBCE wrapped as a "Factory Set". The unopened collector community understands this difference and pays for these products accordingly. Personally, I would probably never buy a Factory Set that was BBCE wrapped and did not either have the "Tape Intact" or "FASC" designation. If I were to buy such a set, I would do it knowing and probably expecting that the key cards were not perfectly gem mint, centered, etc. This is why collectors pay a premium for the Tape Intact or FASC designations.

I hope that sheds some additional light on this for folks who don't normally collect unopened material.

[Exhibitman]

This stuff is Schroedinger's wrapping: the case was both authentic and fake until it was opened.

[Frank A]

I've had several dealings with Steve Hart, and he is a stand up guy. As the saying goes, Shit Happens. No one is perfect all the time, and anyone who says they never made a mistake is a liar. He is the best at what he does .......

[Lorewalker]

It appears to me Steve was simply applying his understanding of sealing techniques to cases he has seen over the decades. He may very well have been correct that the tape was aged with the box. It seems he was outside his wheelhouse because there are things specific to Pokemon that were apparently not right with this case or at the least, questionable. He is the best the hobby has. Far better than Murphy, imo.

All TPG have made millions of dollars of errors. Most likely 10s of millions. Go ahead and break out any pre war card in a PSA or SGC 8 or above and come back and tell me if you ever got it back into a PSA or SGC holder with any number on it. Same could be said for many post war cards in 9s and above.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

He may very well have been correct that the tape was aged with the box.

His exact words were, "The tape is aged onto the case." That's physically impossible since the case had been resealed. If he can't tell the difference in tape that is aged to a case and tape that is not, how can he authenticate cases that are supposedly sealed?