What drives the hobby love for certain players? Ozzie Smith as an example...

[bk400]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I am interested in hearing theories for why certain players seem to get outsized interest in their cards relative to other players.

For example, if you look at the price and liquidity of Ozzie Smith's cards, there seems to be high demand relative to the scarcity.

On the other hand, Mike Schmidt or Ryne Sandberg don't get the same kind of hobby love. At least it doesn't seem that way when you look at how their paper trades. And arguably, Mike Schmidt and Ryne Sandberg played in bigger markets than Ozzie.

[Kutcher55]

I guess I don’t see Ozzie getting more hobby love than those guys. His RC goes for a bit of a premium in high grade but that’s because the card is almost impossible to find centered / untitled. Other than that, his cards don’t really sell for much.

Hard to compare to Schmidt or Sandberg since their careers are staggered at different times of vintage availability. Schmidt’s RC suffers from being ugly and shared with two other guys. Sandberg’s RC is basically junk wax and can be benchmarked against Boggs and Gwynn where it performs pretty well especially given that his career was the least impressive among the three.

Ozzie was beloved. He had that winning personality. He did that flip when he came out on the field, played in a baseball town, hit a famous home run. So he has all that going for him.

Just some random musings.

[frankhardy]

Just YouTube Ozzie Smith defensive highlights and you will see why.

I'm not sure of the analytic stat... I think it is something like "Defensive Runs Saved".... But Ozzie Smith by that statistic is the greatest defensive player in history.

He is still beloved in St Louis and a super nice guy.

[frankhardy]

Also, Baseball Reference "Defensive WAR", Ozzie Smith is the best of all time.

The list goes like this.

Number 1 Ozzie Smith.
Number 2 Mark Belanger.
Number 3 Brooks Robinson.
Number 4 is Cal Ripken Jr.
Number 5 is Joe Tinker.
Number 6 is Luis Aparicio.
Number 7 is Rabbit Moranville.
Number 8 is Pudge Rodriguez.
Number 9 is Omar Viquel.
Number 10 is Bobby Wallace.

By the way. Number 14 is Yadier Molina. As a Cardinals fan I just wanted to throw that in.

[pokerplyr80]

Ozzie was a lot of fun to watch. I'm not surprised at all to hear he's popular in the hobby. Probably the greatest defensive player of all time.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by bk400

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I am interested in hearing theories for why certain players seem to get outsized interest in their cards relative to other players.

For example, if you look at the price and liquidity of Ozzie Smith's cards, there seems to be high demand relative to the scarcity.

On the other hand, Mike Schmidt or Ryne Sandberg don't get the same kind of hobby love. At least it doesn't seem that way when you look at how their paper trades. And arguably, Mike Schmidt and Ryne Sandberg played in bigger markets than Ozzie.

You say Ozzie Smith "cards" but do you just mean RC? As in a single card. Otherwise I wouldn't say his cards get any special skew.

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[bk400]

Originally Posted by todeen

You say Ozzie Smith "cards" but do you just mean RC? As in a single card. Otherwise I wouldn't say his cards get any special skew.

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I look at Ozzie's second year cards -- 1980 in decent condition -- and those go for more than what I would have expected. Same as the 1991 Desert Shield cards. Or the 1982 cards (first one in a Cardinals uniform). But yes, it is seems most pronounced with his RC in, say, a PSA 8 grade, where there are something like 3,000 in circulation, but they go for $300+.

(For the record, I'm not trying to pick on Ozzie. He was my favorite player growing up. My dad took me to Shea Stadium when the Cardinals were in town one summer, and I leaned over the railing during warm-ups, and Mr. Smith signed a ball for me. Probably one of the most enduring of my baseball memories. I wonder if today's players realize how they can make or break a kid's day depending on whether they sign their autograph.)

[frankhardy]

Originally Posted by bk400

(For the record, I'm not trying to pick on Ozzie. He was my favorite player growing up. My dad took me to Shea Stadium when the Cardinals were in town one summer, and I leaned over the railing during warm-ups, and Mr. Smith signed a ball for me. Probably one of the most enduring of my baseball memories. I wonder if today's players realize how they can make or break a kid's day depending on whether they sign their autograph.)

That is so true. Also, the opposite is true I have found out. When baseball players sign autographs for fans and for kids especially, most kids just grab the item after it is signed and move on.

Our son is a 23-year-old mechanical engineer now and we are very proud of him. But when he was about 6 years old it was the first year at the new Busch Stadium. Scott Rolen was signing autographs and my son Andrew took his baseball down to the edge of the field where there were probably 30 kids waiting for autographs. Scott Rolen was signing autograph after autograph and moving on down the line almost mechanically just to be able to sign as many as he could as fast as he could.

When he got to Andrew, Andrew looked at him in the eyes and said "thank you" in a sweet little child's voice. I will never ever forget this. Scott Rolen stopped in his tracks and he looked like he was stunned. He looked at my son for a couple of seconds stopped and said, "Son you keep that up. That is very good manners." It was almost as if nobody ever told him a simple "thank you". I think that made an impression on Scott Rolen. When you watch his Hall of Fame speech, I'm not exactly sure what words he used but he talked much about integrity and character throughout his speech.

Wouldn't it have been very cool for him to have mentioned that? I doubt he remembers it but I guarantee you I'll never forget it.

[ALR-bishop]

Great story Shane

[bk400]

Heartwarming story indeed. The cynic in me wonders whether kids lining up for autographs nowadays are being paid by grown men dealing in memorabilia.

As an aside, I took my own kids to Shea before Covid, and they didn't let people with cheap seat tickets get close to the field, even during warm ups. It's just become a less innocent experience all around.

Finally, your story reminds me of a classmate who saw Marshawn Lynch at a store in San Francisco a few years back. My friend took his young son up to say hello. Lynch told them to "back the f**k off". I guess he's kind of the anti-Ozzie. Or maybe he was worried about having a gun pulled on him. Either way, times have changed -- in my ways, for the worse.

[JollyElm]

OP, we're begging you!!

Three easy steps:
1. Hit "Edit" in the original post
2. Hit "Go Advanced"
3. Correct the frickin' title of this thread by changing the "Why" to "What" (and perhaps add "the" before "hobby")!!!!!!!!

[ledsters]

Every thread needs a card….and I just happen to have an Ozzie 😎

IMG_5787.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bk400

Heartwarming story indeed. The cynic in me wonders whether kids lining up for autographs nowadays are being paid by grown men dealing in memorabilia.

As an aside, I took my own kids to Shea before Covid, and they didn't let people with cheap seat tickets get close to the field, even during warm ups. It's just become a less innocent experience all around.

Finally, your story reminds me of a classmate who saw Marshawn Lynch at a store in San Francisco a few years back. My friend took his young son up to say hello. Lynch told them to "back the f**k off". I guess he's kind of the anti-Ozzie. Or maybe he was worried about having a gun pulled on him. Either way, times have changed -- in my ways, for the worse.

My reaction would have been "who is Marshawn Lynch?"

Ozzie was a pretty impressive player. 1980 Smith is another toughish centering card.

[brian1961]

Shane, I really loved your story. Thanks for sharing it, bro. I was taught to say "please", and "thank you". My wife and I passed these priceless kind of manners and gratitude on to our son. When he began his job as a courier for a huge hospital system, it wasn't long before his smiling, respectful personality shown through. I heard that one of his contacts on his rounds said my son "reinvents nice". Made my day.

I suspect your son made Scott Rolen's day, and perhaps vice versa. You certainly "remember it well", Shane.

Back to OP, a similar topic closely associated with love for certain players' cardboard may be attributed to the fact that they're a terrific autograph guest, and really try to schmooze with their "well-paying" fans. We just lost Brooks Robinson, God rest his soul. He was one of the finest, if not THE FINEST, autograph guest. I heard the late Bobby Hull was super terrific with his fans. How much that was reflected in Brooks or Bobby's trading cards, or memorabilia, it is perhaps impossible to say. Still, those former athletes were welcomed back to the autograph table again, and again, and again.

Back to the story, Shane, that was a beaute. Thanks again, sir.

--- Brian Powell

[todeen]

Lou Brock was the best autograph experience I ever had. Ralph Branca and Bobby Thomson are another pair that were extremely friendly.

I missed the Lou Brock signing because I was at baseball practice. My mom went and stood in for my ticket number. She came and got me so I could go get a photo if he was still around. I showed up still in cleats I think. The owner liked me and let me in after hours. Brock was just in storytelling mode. He stopped, introduced himself to me, asked me personal questions, and then told me stories about his amateur career and how he got "on the radar" with the Scouts when they had come to see the pitcher that day. He made me feel like a million bucks.

Cardinals players represent a classy organization. They in turn end up becoming classy.

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[bk400]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

OP, we're begging you!!

Three easy steps:
1. Hit "Edit" in the original post
2. Hit "Go Advanced"
3. Correct the frickin' title of this thread by changing the "Why" to "What" (and perhaps add "the" before "hobby")!!!!!!!!

Sorry about that -- done and done.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by bk400

Sorry about that -- done and done.

Thank God, now I can finally sleep at night!

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Thank God, now I can finally sleep at night!

:OCD:OCD:OCD

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[Exhibitman]

The conviviality factor is definitely there. I was a big Willie Mays fan as a kid. He was at the end of his career with the Mets when i got to see him play in a game in person for the only time. I even assembled a complete run of his Topps cards. Then I 'met' him at a show. Not even a hello or an acknowledgment of my existence. Just a scrawl on a ball, rolled across the table to a handler. I was so disappointed, I dumped my Mays cards. I've since bought back several. Now, Willie is at the pinnacle of the game regardless of his being a shit, but for a middling HOFer, being a fan favorite is a definite plus in terms of hobby memory. I think that add something to value.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The conviviality factor is definitely there. I was a big Willie Mays fan as a kid. He was at the end of his career with the Mets when i got to see him play in a game in person for the only time. I even assembled a complete run of his Topps cards. Then I 'met' him at a show. Not even a hello or an acknowledgment of my existence. Just a scrawl on a ball, rolled across the table to a handler. I was so disappointed, I dumped my Mays cards. I've since bought back several. Now, Willie is at the pinnacle of the game regardless of his being a shit, but for a middling HOFer, being a fan favorite is a definite plus in terms of hobby memory. I think that add something to value.

In point of fact, I'm not sure if Ozzie is even the best example of a player who gets outsized hobby love. How about Dwight Gooden and Dale Murphy? Neither are in the Hall of Fame (Murphy might have a chance?), but their rookie cards in good condition seem to trade like those of Hall of Famers.

But as it relates to conviviality, both guys seem to have a massive following with fans as a general matter.

[Exhibitman]

Bo Jackson was far less popular before he became a regular on the circuit. Now, I sell all of the Jackson cards I put out at shows. Little kids know him.

[tulsaboy]

I think there are some guys who have "cult" followings, groups of people who loved watching those players as a kid and still have a nostalgic fondness for them. I will agree, though, that other than his 1979 and 1980 cards, pretty much most every other "regular" card of Ozzie Smith is basically worthless. The real question might be, is that a product of his status as a player or just the reality of the junk wax era? Even monster players' cards aren't really worth that much after their first couple of years, at least during the junk wax era.

I think that Ozzie, Sandberg, Mattingly, Gooden, Dale Murphy, and Strawberry all get some major hobby love overall that is maybe not in strict keeping with their career stats for a number of reasons, almost of all of which are rooted in nostalgia.

kevin

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

:OCD:OCD:OCD

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Should have been

:OCD:ODC:O:CD

[mrmopar]

First thing I thought of was the Family Fun Center Ozzie cards. Those sell very well, as does his RC, but guessing all the rest outside of the newer, scarce stuff doesn't do as well.

How about Satchel Paige? Especially in recent years, everything vintage at least is pure molten fire.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

First thing I thought of was the Family Fun Center Ozzie cards. Those sell very well, as does his RC, but guessing all the rest outside of the newer, scarce stuff doesn't do as well.

How about Satchel Paige? Especially in recent years, everything vintage at least is pure molten fire.

Yes, I noticed the same thing about Satchel Paige. Would love to understand what is catalyzing the recent interest. The Ozzie Family Fun Center card is weirdly awesome. One of my all time favorites.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

First thing I thought of was the Family Fun Center Ozzie cards. Those sell very well, as does his RC, but guessing all the rest outside of the newer, scarce stuff doesn't do as well.

How about Satchel Paige? Especially in recent years, everything vintage at least is pure molten fire.

Originally Posted by bk400

Yes, I noticed the same thing about Satchel Paige. Would love to understand what is catalyzing the recent interest. The Ozzie Family Fun Center card is weirdly awesome. One of my all time favorites.

Satchel Paige fame is that he is a tall tale, a Chuck Norris. No story sounds unrealistic. And then, well past his prime, he is signed and helps the 48 Indians win a championship. All the public schools teach about Jackie Robinson, and have taught about him for decades. He became more famous with his movie. Kids who like baseball who do any research about Robinson and the Negro leagues are going to discover Paige. And then they discovered that his cards and photos were super cheap, much cheaper than Jackie.

Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, and a few others don't carry the legendary weight that Paige carries.

Bo Jackson carries that legendary status too.

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[bk400]

One of the things that I love about collecting baseball cards in particular is the link to events in American history. Jackie Robinson is one obvious, emblematic one, but there are others. Sandy Koufax. Roberto Clemente. Hank Aaron.

George W. Bush's first pitch in October 2001. Randy Johnson. Mariano Rivera. David Ortiz and his f**king city. I somewhat wistfully hope that baseball can remain a part of Americana.

[mrmopar]

I understand the appeal of Satch, but it seems there is an almost unexplainable (except that many collectors are buying what everyone else buys because its popular/worth more) surge in his popularity. Maybe it's the facebook groups, that seem loaded with newer or recently re-indoctrinated collectors who have been out of the game a while, jumping back in to buy things they could never afford as younger collectors. His limited card selection certianly helps drive the prices. Glad to have nabbed a 53 and his auto years ago, but I missed out on his Leaf/Bowman and his Tulsa Goofs card, all of which I really wanted, but could never quite afford.

Paige was mostly affordable for his Topps and autographs in general though, now it seems he has skyrocketed to the top tier.
There is some momentum for a number of other negro League favorites too. although nothing close to Paige.

I agree with Bo too. His stuff sells for way more than his career would otherwise dictate. I think it is another case of everyone wanting the same thing and the demand just overwhelming the supply, especially in the case of Jackson autos (certified). They are not scarce, but they all sell for $100+ it seems.

Originally Posted by todeen

Satchel Paige fame is that he is a tall tale, a Chuck Norris. No story sounds unrealistic. And then, well past his prime, he is signed and helps the 48 Indians win a championship. All the public schools teach about Jackie Robinson, and have taught about him for decades. He became more famous with his movie. Kids who like baseball who do any research about Robinson and the Negro leagues are going to discover Paige. And then they discovered that his cards and photos were super cheap, much cheaper than Jackie.

Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, and a few others don't carry the legendary weight that Paige carries.

Bo Jackson carries that legendary status too.

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