Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[tedzan]

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[ClementeFanOh]

Bad Bill Dahlen!

Trent King

[G1911]

The person who most belongs in the Hall of Fame but is not in is (in my opinion) James Creighton, who seems more than anyone to have shifted the game from offense vs. defense to being oriented around pitcher vs. batter. The way the veteran committees work now suggests he ain't getting in anytime soon either.

O'Doul was a starter for five seasons and played 970 games. I think he has a good case for his contributions to the game paired with his obvious talent in a very short career, but his contributions to the game are central in a country that the Hall of Fame is not set up to recognize.

I would vote for Bill Dahlen.

I am surprised Gil Hodges is not in, with his managing of the 1968 Mets as the cherry on top to an excellent career with a mythologized team.

Kenny Lofton may or may not deserve it, but he sure deserved to actually be considered. I hope he gets an honest examination someday.

[Seven]

Wonderful post, Ted!

I would normally say Minnie Minoso, as I think he's put together a more than impressive resume. I feel like he's defintely gotten some more attention lately though, with Negro League Stats being worked in. Luis tiant is another, who I think really deserves the nod, as he had some very impressive years, with the Red Sox

In recent history, Kenny Lofton would be another player that had some incredible years on the field, only to immediately fall off the ballot.

Maybe a less conventional pick, due to the circumstances, and maybe belongs more in the "Hall of Fame talent" category, but, Cecil Travis deserves some consideration. He was a hell of a ballplayer, put together 8 high quality seasons before the War. Suffered frostbite, comes back and is a shell of his former self. I think he technically hits the service time requirement, but will probably never get in.

[Casey2296]

I'll agree on Lefty O'Doul and Dahlen, would also add Dummy Hoy, Coombs, Magee, & Wood.
_

[boysblue]

Whenever one of these types of 'conversations' starts up I always mention Dave Steib. I admit my bias as a Blue Jays fan, but to me he was--along with Jack Morris, I suppose--the dominant AL starter of the '80s.

A horse who got absolutely robbed in '84 Cy Young voting (fourth? seriously?!). Check it out: Pete Vukovich had nowhere near the year Steib had. There was a five-year stretch where everytime he took the ball there was a chance that he might toss a no-no. He did: once. Though he lost a couple of others in the ninth, and came within a whisker of tossing back-to-back no-hitters if memory serves. And all of this with a lousy team behind him and an equally lousy bullpen to save games for him (that might explain why he threw so many innings and so many complete games).

Never had a real shot at the post-season either: he was past-it by the time the Jays got good as team. I have always maintained that had he played for a quality team--especially one with a large following--Dave Steib would be a borderline HOFer.

[Topnotchsy]

I'll echo some of the names already mentioned:

- Lefty O'Doul - Playing career + huge role in baseball's popularity in Japan + PCL manager
- Kenny Lofton - Way better career than Lou Brock. Much better fielder, way better baserunner (Brock's caught stealing's almost completely mitigated the value of his stolen bases
- Minnie Minoso - Think he warrants entry, particularly when combining his Negro League career (which was short) with his career in the MLB. (Using MLB in the way it was used then. I recognize that the Negro Leagues are now officially a Major League).
- Johan Santana - I much prefer a Hall-of-Fame with the players who were elite, even if only for a shorter period of time. Santana was the best pitcher in baseball for roughly 5 years. I'll take him in over Jack Morris personally (though I am sure others disagree).
- Andruw Jones - Arguably the best defensive centerfielder ever. 400+ home runs.
- Dick "Cannonball" Redding - One of the greatest pitchers to ever play in the Negro Leagues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rick Reuschel or however you spell it might have been a bit better than his counting stats.

Dewey Evans had a nice career.

There are the usual suspects like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy and Tony Oliva and Dick Allen.

One of my favorites, Luis Tiant.

Jim Kaat and Tommy John with close to 300 wins each.

[egri]

Billy Pierce.

[Mike D.]

I believe there are a bunch of 2nd basemen who deserve enshrinement.

In rough order, Whitaker, Grich, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Pedroia, maybe Kinsler.

Cano would also be on the list if he hadn't been stupid and popped for steroids (and twice, no less).

[G1911]

Minoso really should be in, it's long overdue at this point.

Curt Schilling is clearly a HOFer, I'm fine with a world where a pitcher of his quality is not in, but by the Hall's standards with their SP picks the last decade, he belongs.

Jeff Kent has a very good case as one of the best hitting 2B ever, but seems to be getting little real consideration and is going to fall off the ballot.

For the pre-war side, Larry Doyle has a good case and has not been mentioned, I think.

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are the usual suspects like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy and Tony Oliva and Dick Allen.

I'm on Team Peter...and his additional comment on Ken Boyer. Add Minnie Minoso...


It would be nice if a few already in the HOF could be traded out...several simply don't belong.

Gil Hodges for Barry Larkin??? And so on....

[pitchernut]

First off, I don't believe this player is a HOFer. What I find interesting is that the second article assures the player into the HOF. I have a couple pre-1936 articles that assure the "no-no" pitcher a place in the HOF. What baffles me is what "HOF" are they talking about in 1916? I was always under the impression the HOF was created around 1936... Was there a HOF back then? Also, is the T-200 of Boston AL the only publicly available ephemera of George "Rube" Foster?.
PS sorry for sideways pics, and Smokey Joe should be in.

[YazFenway08]

I think the state of TN is greatly under-represented in the Hall...

Parisian Bob Caruthers
Clyde Milan
Tommy Bridges
Vada Pinson

I think they all had pretty outstanding careers....probably just short of the Hall but damn fine....

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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O’Doul is in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame. An unofficial ambassador for baseball, he brought the DiMaggio’s and later The Babe and other stars to Japan!He managed Joe and Dom when they started out with the Seals.Dom credited Lefty for making him a major league hitter! Lefty brought his teams to Japan postwar which definitely help the US/Japan relations.

[jchcollins]

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

[abothebear]

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

What’s your favorite team?

[G1911]

Went through each name and sorted them by what I think their category is. Added some new ones, ignoring steroid guys as the argument against them has nothing to do with objective discussion of performance or ranking among pioneers, but is a purely ethical argument that seems a separate issue from the analytical arguments.

Players I would vote for as a no-brainer, whose exclusion from the Hall is a detriment to the Hall
Ross Barnes
James Creighton
Minnie Minoso
Curt Schilling


Players I would vote for and think clearly belong, but see a reasoned argument against:
Bill Dahlen
Gil Hodges
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff


Players I could go either way on, borderline yes or borderline no:
Dick Allen (not mentioned yet)
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman (not mentioned yet)
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Rocky Colavito
Pebbly Jack Glasscock (not mentioned yet)
Tommy John
Jim Kaat - Poor ERA compared to league, lots and lots of consistent innings
Don Mattingly (surprisingly not mentioned yet)
Jim McCormick (not mentioned yet)
Tony Mullane (not mentioned yet)
Tony Oliva
Dave Parker
Cannonball Redding - what I have seen of his surviving numbers seems to me to suggest he is not a HOFer, but the numbers from his leagues are incomplete and dubious.
Luis Tiant
George Van Haltren
Lou Whitaker


Players I think are below Hall standards but I see how a reasonable argument could be made:
Tommy Bridges
Dave Concepcion
Johnny Damon
Carlos Delgado
Larry Doyle
Jim Edmonds
Darrel Evans
Dwight Evans
George Foster
Steve Garvey
Kirk Gibson
Bob Grich
Dummy Hoy
Andruw Jones
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Thurman Munson (not mentioned yet)
Dale Murphy
Lefty O’Doul - Japan & PCL has never before been a factor for consideration.
Buck O’Neil - Nostalgia in and of itself is not enough.
Billy Pierce
Vada Pinson
Ed Reulbach - short career and his peak is not high enough to compensate
Johann Santana
Dave Stieb - About equal to Morris, but let’s not make that mistake twice.
Joe Wood


Players for whom I do not see a reasoned argument, are not serious candidates:
Jack Coombs - 2,300 IP and an ERA worse than the league average. 1 excellent season is not a HOFer
Mike Donlin
Johnny Grubb - This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Chet Lemon- This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Firpo Marberry
Clyde Milan - No HOF milestones, 9% better bat than league, good player but there is no way he is HOF
Lance Parish
Dummy Taylor - Less than 2,000 IP, 116 wins, ERA 7% better than league. Over 100 pitchers belong ahead of him.
Cecil Travis - Would be first player elected to the Hall of Fame specifically for what he did not accomplish rather than for what he did.

[MooseDog]

Bay Area Candidates

1) Lefty O'Doul
2) Will Clark
3) Vida Blue
4) Jose Canseco
5) Billy Martin

O'Doul undoubtedly should be in. Clark is kid of Dale Murphy level. Blue and Canseco put up numbers equal to or better than other borderline HOF candidates but have drugs (Blue) and steroid (Canseco) scandals hanging over their heads.

Billy Martin should be in at the very least as a manager.

[brianclat11]

I’ll second the vote for Dave Concepción of the 70s Big Red machine. For my money, one of the best defensive shortstops that ever played the game. His connection with Joe Morgan at 2nd was special. He could also handle the bat but kind of played second fiddle to the superstars on that team. The fact he hung around a little bit longer on the Reds when they went through some lean times didn’t help.

[ThomasL]

Im a small Hall guy so I will take someone out if Im putting someone in...

Putting in:

Buck O'Neil
Lefty O'Doul
-both based on a solid careers and stellar post career involvement and contributions.

Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
-there are already steroid guys in so lets not be hypocritical here, these two should have been no brainers (3000 hits/500 HR guy and a 600 HR guy) had it not been for steriods

Taking out:
Rabbit Maranville
Jesse Haines
Bud Selig
Candy Cummings

(Schilling should be in and probably will get in so Im not listing him)

[Knoxy24]

Dave Parker was solid at the plate and in the field....others would include

Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

[esd10]

Jake daubert a premier 1st baseman of the deadball era who belongs in the hall of fame.
August herrmann consider one of the fathers of the world series and made peace between the nl and al by giving up sam crawford to Detroit and Tony mullane.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

[ctownboy]

abothebear must have been hungry when he made that list....

David

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

Every 8-year-old's favorite player should be in the Hall of Fame.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

[Orioles1954]

For the first few years of his career Joe Mauer was considered a lock.

[bjerome]

I will still say that Mauer is getting in. It is strictly because of what he did behind the plate. In the history of the game there have been a total of 6 Batting titles won by a catcher. Bubbles Hargrave, Ernie Lombardi x2, and Buster Posey all have one. All were National League Catchers. Mauer has 3 himself and is the only American League Catcher to accomplish this feat. His MVP Award, Silver Slugger Awards, and Gold Gloves all add to him being the best all-around Catcher of his time. His induction will likely be later in his candidacy, but he's going to go in on the basis of what he did behind the plate as he did things no other catcher had ever accomplished.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

[moogpowell]

I agree that his fielding stats are misleading. I remember from back in the day he would hardly stretch or go off the bag. If the throw was errant, too bad.

BUT I am hugely sympathetic to him possibly going in. For starters, he was a 10-time all star and fell just 401 hits short of 3,000. His career avg. was .294 and in post-season action he excelled, batting .338 in 55 post-season games with 11 home runs (which equates to a home run in 4.7% of plate appearances compared to his career average of 2.9%) and 31 RBIs.

And look at this stat!

Number of seasons with 200+ hits.

Steve Garvey - 6
Tony Gwynn - 5
Rod Carew - 4

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

Garvey was a great post season player. One of the best. He was a dominant player in his era. Sometimes the stats don't tell the true story. He should be in the Hall of Fame if Tony Perez and Harold Baines are in. Keith Hernandez should also be in based upon some of the past selections.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

He had a horrible throwing arm as well.

Brian

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by rats60

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

+1

Garvey was nails in the post season too.

[ejharrington]

Curt Schilling, Keith Hernandez, and Ross Barnes are my top 3.

[SD]

How about Schoolboy Rowe, Doc Cramer, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, Jim McCormick, Billy Pierce & Mickey Lolich?



Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[TUM301]

Roger Maris, strong argument could be made he still owns the single season`s (and possibly all sports) most historical number, 61.

[tiger8mush]

Clemens and Bonds?

Its my understanding that over half the league is thought to have been using PEDs at the time, which MLB knew about but did nothing to stop. Pitchers faced hitters on PEDs, hitters faced pitchers on PEDs. MLB started serving suspensions for PED usage in 2005; Bonds & Clemens finished their careers playing 2005 and 2006 and 2007 (in their 40s) w/o a suspension. Both were SOOO dominant, their stats are just crazy. And they faced opponents who were also on PEDs.

How many years have pitchers been doctoring the ball with spider tack and other substances, which is against MLB rules, but was never stopped until now? None of the Astros lost their stats nor rings for cheating and many of those same coaches and players are still playing today. Many old timers, including HOFers, have admitted to (or been accused of) cheating in one way or another.

I was on the fence in the past, but am leaning towards induction for them both. Thoughts?

[cammb]

Vada Pinson was every bit as good as Clemente

[Ricky]

Originally Posted by cammb

Vada Pinson was every bit as good as Clemente

This is a hot take!

[bbcard1]

Any love for Bobby Mathews and his 297 wins? Three more and it would not have been a discussion. He was done by 1900 and has a terribly forgettable name. He probably didn't stack up against the best of his era, but he sure racked up a lot of stats, though the teams he played on were wonky. Once netted 625 innings in a single season.

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Any love for Bobby Mathews and his 297 wins? many eras of baseball. Three more and it would not have been a discussion. He was done by 1900 and has a terribly forgettable name. He probably didn't stack up against the best of his era, but he sure racked up a lot of stats, though the teams he played on were wonky. Once netted 625 innings in a single season.

Mathews was an excellent pitcher for a number of years. His career totals helps illustrate the folly of comparing players across the many eras of baseball. Although seasons were shorter in the 19th century, starting pitchers simply pitched more games than they would into the 20th century and beyond. Getting 300 wins, like hitting .400, was easier in the 19th century than later years. On the other hand, hitting home runs was infinitely more difficult and not really a part of the style of baseball played back then. My point is that when evaluating players, using benchmarks is folly. The best way to evaluate any player is by viewing his record compared to his peers.
This assures an apples to apples comparison. This is not to say Mathews is not a hofer. I have no problem with his worthiness.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by cammb

Vada Pinson was every bit as good as Clemente

15xAS....... 4xAS
12xGG....... 1xGG
1 MVP....... 0 MVP
1 WS MVP....... 0 WS MVP
2 WS Champ....... 0 WS Champ
4 BA Champ....... 0 BA Champ

Those two are not remotely close.

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by rats60

15xAS....... 4xAS
12xGG....... 1xGG
1 MVP....... 0 MVP
1 WS MVP....... 0 WS MVP
2 WS Champ....... 0 WS Champ
4 BA Champ....... 0 BA Champ

Those two are not remotely close.

Thank you!

[cammb]

Saw each of them play for a significant time, your stats don't impress me. How about seeing them in action.

[bbcard1]

I've looked at Pinson pretty closely. He was a nice player. i think he needed two things to make the hall of fame...had his best seasons been more evenly distributed and had he played on a couple of teams that were a little more competitive. He was on the "catch lightning in a bottle" 1961 Reds team that ran into a meat grinder vs. the Yankees.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by cammb

vada pinson was every bit as good as clemente

wtf?

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

wtf?

When I first saw that I had the same reaction, but then I took a deeper dive into Pinson's stats. As good as Clemente? Of course not. Very underrated, though? Indeed.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

When I first saw that I had the same reaction, but then I took a deeper dive into Pinson's stats. As good as Clemente? Of course not. Very underrated, though? Indeed.

I love Pinson and would love to see him inducted some day. Very underrated, and playing for small-market Cincy didn't help either.

But there's no universe in which he was as good as Clemente.