The All Overrated Team

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

When you are #1-#2 in the public eye at any position, I don’t see how it is incomprehensible. His fame and reputation are immensely greater than his statistical achievement. This is not a slur to his actual performance.

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

I guess it comes down to how we are defining how someone is "overrated."

I don't see how you could call Jackie overrated as a player unless you think WAR is a complete joke. As you pointed out, he put up 60 War in fewer than 1,500 games. The only others in history with as high a WAR in fewer than 1,500 games? “Shoeless” Joe Jackson (62.1 WAR in 1,332 games) and Mike Trout (76.1 WAR in 1,288 games). https://www.mlb.com/news/most-underrated-hall-of-famers

In Jackie's 5 year peak from 1949 thru 1953 his WAR was 9.3, 7.4, 9.7, 8.4, 6.9 for an absurd average of 8.34. People win MVP with 8 or less WAR on a regular basis.

I think the only way you could say Jackie is overrated is to say that his cards sell for too much. Which again, I think is a lousy argument, considering that he completely transformed the game.

[nolemmings]

I limited my list to players who played at least part of their careers in my lifetime. Admitted bias as I never really cared for any of these guys other than Reggie.

C: IRod
1b: Bagwell
2b: Alomar
3b: Edgar Martinez
SS: Ozzie Smith
LF: Rose
CF: Snider
RF: Reggie
SP: Glavine

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

I would not rank him third among 2B. I don’t see a way to do that in the numbers without ignoring longevity entirely. I don’t give credit for the war years, to anyone. College and the war years create his gap (I’m giving him credit for his Negro League career). I don’t think I can reasonably count years that did not happen in reality. I’d have to find my notes but I had him around 10 last time I really deep dived into the 2B. I like Jackie, I’m fine with his cards selling for more than his talent as a great historical figure, but I think he is greatly overrated in the public eye. Ask casuals who the greatest historical players are at any position. They won’t say Eddie Collins (who I put #1 among 2B). His fame produces an inflation of his on the field performance.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would not rank him third among 2B. I don’t see a way to do that in the numbers without ignoring longevity entirely. I don’t give credit for the war years, to anyone. College and the war years create his gap (I’m giving him credit for his Negro League career). I don’t think I can reasonably count years that did not happen in reality. I’d have to find my notes but I had him around 10 last time I really deep dived into the 2B. I like Jackie, I’m fine with his cards selling for more than his talent as a great historical figure, but I think he is greatly overrated in the public eye. Ask casuals who the greatest historical players are at any position. They won’t say Eddie Collins (who I put #1 among 2B). His fame produces an inflation of his on the field performance.

I don't think Jackie is the greatest 2B of all time, my vote would go to Hornsby, and it's not even close, and this is despite the fact that Hornsby was an extremely unlikeable character.

I would not say that Jackie is overrated by any stretch of the imagination. I also don't think he's underrated.

[rajah424]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just not seeing it. I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time (though I actually think you could make the argument without stretching TOO hard, but it would have to include a lot of hypotheticals about his years lost to the war and the "gentleman's agreement")

Unless you think me having him at 3rd all time is ludicrously high, how can he be overrated at all, let alone the MOST overrated second basemen of all time, which is what putting him on your list represents. Shouldn't that "honor" be saved for someone who is ranked 10 or 20 spots too high as opposed to maybe one or two spots too high?

In 1999, the Major League Baseball All-Century Team was chosen by popular vote of fans. To select the team, a panel of experts first compiled a list of the 100 greatest Major League Baseball players from the past 20th century. Over two million fans then voted on the players using paper and online ballots. The top two vote-getters from each position were placed on the team.

Here are the Shortstops on the list to vote for:

Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.

Robinson came in 1st with 788,116 votes
Hornsby came in 2nd with 630,761 votes

I would say 788,116 think Robinson is the greatest 2nd basemen of all time.
I would personally say as great as he was, at least 788,116 people overrate him.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rajah424

In 1999, the Major League Baseball All-Century Team was chosen by popular vote of fans. To select the team, a panel of experts first compiled a list of the 100 greatest Major League Baseball players from the past 20th century. Over two million fans then voted on the players using paper and online ballots. The top two vote-getters from each position were placed on the team.

Here are the Shortstops on the list to vote for:

Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.

Robinson came in 1st with 788,116 votes
Hornsby came in 2nd with 630,761 votes

I would say 788,116 think Robinson is the greatest 2nd basemen of all time.
I would personally say as great as he was, at least 788,116 people overrate him.

Depends how you define greatness. We give Ruth credit for his impact on the game. The same value add should accrue to Robinson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Depends how you define greatness. We give Ruth credit for his impact on the game. The same value add should accrue to Robinson.

In a few special cases, yes, agreed. That said, I would rate Jackie around 4th or 5th.

[Carter08]

My view is Jackie being overrated is an attempt at a hot take that is tried so often it’s a cold take. 7 straight years with MVP shares. Guy was pretty sick at 2B. If anything I think he’s underrated.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rajah424

In 1999, the Major League Baseball All-Century Team was chosen by popular vote of fans. To select the team, a panel of experts first compiled a list of the 100 greatest Major League Baseball players from the past 20th century. Over two million fans then voted on the players using paper and online ballots. The top two vote-getters from each position were placed on the team.

Here are the Shortstops on the list to vote for:

Rod Carew, Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.

Robinson came in 1st with 788,116 votes
Hornsby came in 2nd with 630,761 votes

I would say 788,116 think Robinson is the greatest 2nd basemen of all time.
I would personally say as great as he was, at least 788,116 people overrate him.

But does overrating him by a couple spots make him the most overrated of all time???

Billy Herman is in the hall with a lower WAR than Jackie's 10 year career in 15 years. Mazeroski barely got to HALF of Jackie's total in 17 years. You don't see anyone wushing to put Frank White in the HOF and he's damn near the identical player to Mazeroski. If we're going with MOST overrated I just don't see how it can be a guy who averaged 6 WAR. If you like counting stats then Jackie can't be your guy, but fer cryin' out loud he's 16th all-time in WAR at the position in half the time of a lot of the guys ahead of him, and many of them only beat him by a hair. If you look at WAR 7 he jumps to 5th all time, WAR5C Also 5th all time, and again his major league career didn't start until he was 28.

[rats60]

P Bert Blyleven
C Ted Simmons
1b David Ortiz
2b Red Schoendienst
SS Derek Jeter
3b Edgar Martinez
LF Barry Bonds
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Hank Aaron

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

P Bert Blyleven
C Ted Simmons
1b David Ortiz
2b Red Schoendienst
SS Derek Jeter
3b Edgar Martinez
LF Barry Bonds
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Hank Aaron

You always have an interesting POV. Can you explain the outfield?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You always have an interesting POV. Can you explain the outfield?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9RvABfC5q8&t=345s

When you play defense like at 5:30 of this video and get gifted gold gloves - You Are Overrated!

When your home park is the easiest stadium in baseball to hit home runs in, and you need your team to move the fences in to make it easier for you to hit home runs - You Are Overrated!

When you need to use steroids to improve your performance - You Are Overrated!

When your cards are worth more than those of Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Willie Mays even though you weren't as good as them - You Are Overrated!

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by rats60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9RvABfC5q8&t=345s

When you play defense like at 5:30 of this video and get gifted gold gloves - You Are Overrated!

When your home park is the easiest stadium in baseball to hit home runs in, and you need your team to move the fences in to make it easier for you to hit home runs - You Are Overrated!

When you need to use steroids to improve your performance - You Are Overrated!

When your cards are worth more than those of Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Willie Mays even though you weren't as good as them - You Are Overrated!

So Hank Aaron misplayed a ball in the 1966 All Star Game which was 6 years after he last won a gold glove award so he's overrated? Ok, got it.

[rajah424]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

But does overrating him by a couple spots make him the most overrated of all time???

Billy Herman is in the hall with a lower WAR than Jackie's 10 year career in 15 years. Mazeroski barely got to HALF of Jackie's total in 17 years. You don't see anyone wushing to put Frank White in the HOF and he's damn near the identical player to Mazeroski. If we're going with MOST overrated I just don't see how it can be a guy who averaged 6 WAR. If you like counting stats then Jackie can't be your guy, but fer cryin' out loud he's 16th all-time in WAR at the position in half the time of a lot of the guys ahead of him, and many of them only beat him by a hair. If you look at WAR 7 he jumps to 5th all time, WAR5C Also 5th all time, and again his major league career didn't start until he was 28.

I don't think many people would vote for Billy Herman or Mazeroski as the greatest ever at their position. The majority of people that voted in the All Century poll did vote for Robinson as the greatest 2nd basemen ever. You stated I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time and clearly many people do. I cannot think of another player that comes close to Robinson at having his status as the greatest at his position be based more on his reputation than his performance.

All that said, i do think Robinson was a great player, one of the greatest, and probably a even better human being. It's not his fault his ML career started so late but the truth is his numbers just don't add up to being the greatest at his position as many people seem to rank him. This is why i think he is one of the most overrated players.

People seem to think being labeled overrated is a huge putdown but i don't. In Robinson and Clementes' case it is probably a compliment to know that so many people rate you that highly based on what you did off the field as much or more than what you did on the field.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rajah424

I don't think many people would vote for Billy Herman or Mazeroski as the greatest ever at their position. The majority of people that voted in the All Century poll did vote for Robinson as the greatest 2nd basemen ever. You stated I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time and clearly many people do. I cannot think of another player that comes close to Robinson at having his status as the greatest at his position be based more on his reputation than his performance.

All that said, i do think Robinson was a great player, one of the greatest, and probably a even better human being. It's not his fault his ML career started so late but the truth is his numbers just don't add up to being the greatest at his position as many people seem to rank him. This is why i think he is one of the most overrated players.

People seem to think being labeled overrated is a huge putdown but i don't. In Robinson and Clementes' case it is probably a compliment to know that so many people rate you that highly based on what you did off the field as much or more than what you did on the field.

This. Robinson is, in the public eye, one of the absolute greatest of all time. His measurable, statistical performance simply does not track with this. It is not an insult. I even laid effusive praise upon his person. His fame and precedence in the pantheon are more divorced from performance than probably any other player.

There are a group of players who a large part of the baseball fan world do not want to hear anything about that does not further the legend and myth. Ruth fans don't get upset if someone makes a fat joke. Williams fans don't get upset if someone says he could have played nicer with the press. One doesn't even have to say anything actually negative of Jackie, of Clemente, of Ryan, of Koufax, just not further the legend to rankle some feathers. It's a mark of an overrated player.

Jackie's short career (his Negro League career was 1 season, 1945, which count as the majors now) was because of WWII and college. He spent only one season in the minor leagues, not exactly an unfair amount of time. That he chose to retire instead of play out the rest of his decline with the Giants protects his percentages, which have been the primary basis for ranking him fairly high among 2B as a top ten. Another mark of an overrated player is they are the ones that tend to get people wanting to count fantasy seasons as if they had happened, not as a hypothetical 'what if', but for actual ranking credit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I keep losing track of whether I'm on the underrated or overrated threads.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

This. Robinson is, in the public eye, one of the absolute greatest of all time. His measurable, statistical performance simply does not track with this. It is not an insult. I even laid effusive praise upon his person. His fame and precedence in the pantheon are more divorced from performance than probably any other player.

There are a group of players who a large part of the baseball fan world do not want to hear anything about that does not further the legend and myth. Ruth fans don't get upset if someone makes a fat joke. Williams fans don't get upset if someone says he could have played nicer with the press. One doesn't even have to say anything actually negative of Jackie, of Clemente, of Ryan, of Koufax, just not further the legend to rankle some feathers. It's a mark of an overrated player.

Jackie's short career (his Negro League career was 1 season, 1945, which count as the majors now) was because of WWII and college. He spent only one season in the minor leagues, not exactly an unfair amount of time. That he chose to retire instead of play out the rest of his decline with the Giants protects his percentages, which have been the primary basis for ranking him fairly high among 2B as a top ten. Another mark of an overrated player is they are the ones that tend to get people wanting to count fantasy seasons as if they had happened, not as a hypothetical 'what if', but for actual ranking credit.

Do most people think Jackie is one of the best of all time purely because of technical skill or because of what he meant to the game and America, combined with some damn fine technical skill? Guessing the letter.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rajah424

I don't think many people would vote for Billy Herman or Mazeroski as the greatest ever at their position. The majority of people that voted in the All Century poll did vote for Robinson as the greatest 2nd basemen ever. You stated I don't think anyone considers him the greatest second basemen of all time and clearly many people do. I cannot think of another player that comes close to Robinson at having his status as the greatest at his position be based more on his reputation than his performance.

All that said, i do think Robinson was a great player, one of the greatest, and probably a even better human being. It's not his fault his ML career started so late but the truth is his numbers just don't add up to being the greatest at his position as many people seem to rank him. This is why i think he is one of the most overrated players.

People seem to think being labeled overrated is a huge putdown but i don't. In Robinson and Clementes' case it is probably a compliment to know that so many people rate you that highly based on what you did off the field as much or more than what you did on the field.

I guess putting wildly undeserving guys in the HOF strikes me as more overrated than people saying Jackie was the greatest second basemen of all time when he's only among the greatest.

I will say I was surprised that so many people picked him at number one, but nobody with an ounce of analytical ability would do that. That being said taking in a sample of baseball sites just in the order they pop up on google they have him rated 8th, 3rd, 4th, 7th and 5th. I'd argue with 7th and 8th, that they are relying too much on counting stats, but still that averages out to 5th.

To me even if you meant overrated by the general public the leap from 5th to 1st is less than Mazeroski's leap from MAYBE top 50 to HOF, leapfrogging a couple dozen guys with better numbers.

[G1911]

Mazeroski is almost universally regarded by the very knowledgeable as a poor choice for the Hall and a mistake. In fact, its difficult to bring up his name in such company and not get a comment to that effect almost immediately. Same for Schoendienst, et alii. The general public does not know who Schoendienst et alii even are and might know Mazeroski for a World Series homer.

Meanwhile, Jackie is a top 5 player at any position all time in the public eye. He was an excellent to great player for ~8 seasons. He seems to easily qualify for the players whose acclaim is most distant from their measurable, statistical performance.

[Seven]

I think there's a divide between players that are overrated by fans, versus players that are overrated by sportswriters, nevertheless I will attempt to answer the question at hand.

Catcher: Rick Ferrell

Not an exceptional hitter by any stretch of the means, an average defender by the numbers. Got in to the Hall on the veterans committee, which has been known for their skewing of votes.

First Base: Jim Bottomley

Another selection of the veterans committee. A very solid, pre-war player, but one that I can't really get behind in terms of the Hall of Fame. I will say had he been able to replicate his numbers from his twenties, he'd be much more deserving.

Second Base: Bill Mazeroski

An excellent defender through and through for the pirates, but we all know why he made the Hall; one incredible home run.

Third Base: Freddie Lindstrom

Similar reasons as Catcher and First Base, a Vet Committee darling.

Shortstop: David Bancroft

See Above

Left Field : Bo Jackson

I thoroughly admire Bo as an athlete, and his contributions to College/Pro Football. But people talk "What If" with him all the time when it comes to baseball and the guy hit for a terrible average.

Center Field: Earle Combs

A product of the Yankees media hype machine, that emerged around the time of Ruth, he does not belong in the Hall

Right Field: Roger Maris

He was good, Not great. He did have a couple of Great Seasons though. Deserves recognition, undoubtedly, but does not belong in the Hall, even though some people are calling for it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mazeroski is almost universally regarded by the very knowledgeable as a poor choice for the Hall and a mistake. In fact, its difficult to bring up his name in such company and not get a comment to that effect almost immediately. Same for Schoendienst, et alii. The general public does not know who Schoendienst et alii even are and might know Mazeroski for a World Series homer.

Meanwhile, Jackie is a top 5 player at any position all time in the public eye. He was an excellent to great player for ~8 seasons. He seems to easily qualify for the players whose acclaim is most distant from their measurable, statistical performance.

You can't have it both ways and take the "uneducated" public calling Jackie the greatest and hence he's overerrated, and then take the "educated" opinion on Maz that says he's a horrible HOF choice so he's not overrated.