Alex Rodriguez Thinks He Is Entitled

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Haha you are still treating subjective things like they're provable facts or something. I said Pettitte was an all-time Yankee because he is. How do I know that? Because the franchise retired his number and put a monument of him in Monument Park.

You took that to mean there is some kind of starting nine or something that A-Rod belongs to and it's absurd to say he doesn't. But that has nothing to do with who fans consider to be all-time players for their franchise. Because once again, something like retiring someone's number or seeing them as an all-time player for your team is determined by the fan base and not stats.

I see we're doing the shift since you can't explain not being able to read the second clause, as usual.

We all know A-Rod is an all-time great Yankee and by far their best 3B. Your reformulation here is that "A-Rod is not because he isn't retired and Pettitte is because he is retired" - no shit, we know A-Rod hasn't had his number retired, Sherlock . The discussion is whether or not he should be or it is reasonable for him to expect to be.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

I see we're doing the shift since you can't explain not being able to read the second clause, as usual.

We all know A-Rod is an all-time great Yankee and by far their best 3B. Your reformulation here is that "A-Rod is not because he isn't retired and Pettitte is because he is retired" - no shit, we know A-Rod hasn't had his number retired, Sherlock . The discussion is whether or not he should be or it is reasonable for him to expect to be.

It is pretty obvious to everyone that you don't follow the Yankees, you don't have an informed opinion on who the franchise honors or why, and you don't know how Yankee fans feel about their own players.

But you are correct always.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

It is pretty obvious to everyone that you don't follow the Yankees, you don't have an informed opinion on who the franchise honors or why, and you don't know how Yankee fans feel about their own players.

But you are correct always.

And it's pretty obvious you can't read sentences with more than one clause.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What Greg is saying is really not that hard to grasp. I don't know why people are fighting it.

[packs]

Because it has nothing to do with anything. A-Rod can't put up stats that will convince anyone to retire his number. He himself would have been the catalyst and we know how that turned out.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What Greg is saying is really not that hard to grasp. I don't know why people are fighting it.

Because I said it

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- You're correct in that this isn't hard to grasp, you are just getting the
"hard to grasp" item wrong (deliberately, in all likelihood)...

The original post was a self-described "vent" by someone who expressed
astonishment/contempt/bemusement about the continuous self-involved
exploits of ARod, who apparently had to start a campaign to get his number
retired by the Yankees (yes, he's burrowing ever lower into the desperate
former athlete category). This is very, very easy to follow UNTIL people
derail. You and the omniscient baseball guru 1911 fall into this category.
You and 1911 are essentially the "ARods" of this thread, actually- blissfully
unaware that you are in the wrong and dug in. Feel free to stay there, but
it won't make either of you right.

Bottom line: the Yankees organization clearly feels that they have no need,
and certainly no obligation, to honor a fecal stain who caused them
headache after headache. It's their call, everything else is smoke. Capisce?

Trent King

[G1911]

Oh, if only omniscience was as easy to achieve as recognize the indisputable fact that PED scandal is not the barrier to Yankee number retirement we would all be omniscient.

I am always amused when you and I are throw in together, Peter, considering that we do nothing but argue with each other and agree on almost nothing under the sun beyond some elementary underling facts of whatever the issue is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Post 20 raised the PED question as to whether he was overrated as a player. I responded to that by questioning how anyone in the steroid era could be fairly evaluated, and Greg pointed out that PEDs could not be the reason for devaluing ARod by the Yankees given how they treated Petitte. This is all clearly within the subject, easy to understand, and I don't know what your issue is at this point, though I won't take it personally if you want to rant and rave some more.

[ClementeFanOh]

1911- And I'm always amused when you anoint yourself the undisputed
arbiter of fact. Got anything pertaining to the initial point of the post? King

Trent King

[packs]

It has been explained at length that the only thing that factors into a number being retired is how the franchise and fans feel about the player.

But you choose to discuss stats and PEDs, which can impact how fans feel about a player, but do not actually represent credentials for retiring your number.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

1911- And I'm always amused when you anoint yourself the undisputed
arbiter of fact. Got anything pertaining to the initial point of the post? King

Trent King

You mean the original post that called out his PED use as a disqualifying reason? Yes, go read!

I know it's been a month since my favorite stalker has carried on his personal vendetta, but try harder.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- nope, not gonna work. There's no ranting or raving, all breakable
objects in my home are quite safe. Blood pressure checks ok, good to go.
Try to stay on point next time- wait. Don't try, actually do it. Anything related
to the scope of the original thread post, or is it more diversion? Trent King

PS- I already know the answer to that question.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

I don't vent much, but when this article "Alex Rodriguez doesn't understand why Yankees haven't retired his No. 13: 'It bothers me" came out recently, it definitely hit a nerve with me. I've been an Alex Rodriguez fan and collector since 1995. What irks me about him, even after all the negative crap that he has done, is his constant narcissistic and self-entitled attitude.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/alex-...retired-number

Arod lied about doing PEDs, got caught, then did it again; being suspended for the entire 2014 season (that sure helped the Yankees; great job Arod). He initiated a lawsuit against Baseball, Players Union, over PED investigation (which he was guilty of), which he later dropped. He sued the Yankees Doctor, which he later dropped. His negative conduct, at times, as a player with the Yankees, wasn't something to be proud of.

After all of the above, and more, he doesn't understand why Yankees haven't retired his No. 13. And to top it off, admits feeling slighted when Joey Gallo was allowed to wear the number during his disastrous run with the team. Yes, slams Gallo in the process.

Here's my advice to Arod, "keep your mouth shut! You're not entitled to anything!"

Since a preponderance of the evidence suggests people are unwilling or unable to read correctly, here is the original post making PED's and related scandalous conduct part of the on-topic discussion, bolded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Peter- nope, not gonna work. There's no ranting or raving, all breakable
objects in my home are quite safe. Blood pressure checks ok, good to go.
Try to stay on point next time- wait. Don't try, actually do it. Anything related
to the scope of the original thread post, or is it more diversion? Trent King

PS- I already know the answer to that question.

My question whether players from the steroid era (including ARod) can be fairly evaluated is clearly on topic to the OP.. Next point?

[packs]

But evaluated for what? The article and thread title is about whether the Yankees should retire a player's number. There are no statistical parameters for that.

[ClementeFanOh]

1911- yep, I just learned to read last week, so I'm glad you posted the
original thread again. Problem is, that post directly mentions narcissism,
entitlement, PED, and suing his own collective bargaining unit and Yankees
personnel(!). Once again, you pick and choose to support your own derailing
remarks... Not going to work, all you are doing here is digging in because
someone dares oppose you. Perhaps you should fire off an email to Yankees
management with your cogent explanation of why ARod's number should be
retired. I'm SURE they'll have his jersey up in no time- that'll show us!!

Lastly, I'm not a stalker and don't have a vendetta either. The vast majority
of my interactions on net54 are with collectors about cards. Once in awhile
I see a fly that needs shooed away. Since you have such a keen mind, I'm
sure you can figure out who is the fly, and who is doing the shooing.

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

1911- yep, I just learned to read last week, so I'm glad you posted the
original thread again. Problem is, that post directly mentions narcissism,
entitlement, PED, and suing his own collective bargaining unit and Yankees
personnel(!). Once again, you pick and choose to support your own derailing
remarks... Not going to work, all you are doing here is digging in because
someone dares oppose you. Perhaps you should fire off an email to Yankees
management with your cogent explanation of why ARod's number should be
retired. I'm SURE they'll have his jersey up in no time- that'll show us!!

Lastly, I'm not a stalker and don't have a vendetta either. The vast majority
of my interactions on net54 are with collectors about cards. Once in awhile
I see a fly that needs shooed away. Since you have such a keen mind, I'm
sure you can figure out who is the fly, and who is doing the shooing.

Trent King

If, to be on topic, one can only restate the entirety of the OP and address every single point therein without focusing in on a claim therein or expressing differing opinion or contradictory fact, then how is your tantrum on topic? You're even more 'off-topic'. Are you going to call a foul on yourself? No?

Again - I never even argued that A-Rod's number should be retired. I said the reason preferred was demonstrably untrue, which it is, and it has nothing to do with a fair evaluation of performance or consistency. For the 500th time, A-Rod is not kept out because of PED scandal. We know this because the Yankees have already honored such players. That is the argument actually made. It is blatantly obvious. The bullshit people make up to argue against instead is not the actual argument made.

You come and bitch at me once every 2 months or so no matter what the issue is with these outlandish over the top overage over the most innocuous of statements. Remember when you threw a tantrum in one of Net54's funniest threads of all time about what a horrible guy I am and always right because I was against lynching people as a general concept? I sure do! https://net54baseball.com/showthread...=327610&page=3. It's a shame that, unlike Packs who for some reason is always exempt from the rule, I have to disclose my ID to the nutballs whose heads I clearly live in rent-free lol

[ClementeFanOh]

1911- I vaguely recall you making idiotic remarks about me in a deliberate
misrepresentation of what I said. But, that essentially describes every
interaction you have, where someone doesn't mindlessly accept your
manifestos. Since I rarely agree with you, it often happens. You portray me
as some maniac, aren't even close to right, make claims about "appeals to
authority" and other inanities, then resort to name calling while still daring
to portray yourself as a neutral commenter without bias. Rinse and repeat...

Back to the topic(!!). Arod's habitual PED use is NOT the sole, or even
primary, reason his number isn't hanging in the rafters in NY. I certainly
haven't alleged it. He is a serial offender in numerous ways that alienate any
person from any organization, in this case fans of that organization too, for a
timespan of 12 years. He's essentially written the book on how to make a
group of people who were destined to admire him, despise him instead- and
he can't stop even in retirement. The results are in- he's not up there, and
does not merit it. He's wealthy, he's famous, and he's not respected. THAT is
his own fault and it's under his skin. Move on.

Trent King

[G1911]

The funniest part of this display is that everyone apparently agrees with the statement - that PED use and scandal is not and cannot be the reason A-Rod is excluded. Even when they agree with the statement, the normal nutter and the illiterates will bitch up a storm - and then wind up agreeing with the innocuous statement they evidently forget was allegedly the source of their tantrum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It has been explained at length that the only thing that factors into a number being retired is how the franchise and fans feel about the player.

But you choose to discuss stats and PEDs, which can impact how fans feel about a player, but do not actually represent credentials for retiring your number.

How many average beloved players have had their number retired?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many average beloved players have had their number retired?

Andy Pettitte is a hint above average.

3 All Star appearances in 18 years, basically a 4.00 lifetime ERA. Eh.

[ClementeFanOh]

1911- you and the facts have again parted company, you aren’t as level headed and unbiased as you claim. PEDs are one of a laundry list of reasons this tool isn’t getting what he craves. You’re wrong, it’s a cited reason but not the only reason. That’s the beauty of Arod- you can’t swing a stick without hitting a reason to dislike him. You 2 are alike in that regard. Try harder. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Andy Pettitte is a hint above average.

3 All Star appearances in 18 years, basically a 4.00 lifetime ERA. Eh.

Yeah but 250 wins and all those postseasons, I hear you, but is there a better example of the "Packs rule"?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah but 250 wins and all those postseasons, I hear you, but is there a better example of the "Packs rule"?

No, no average players no matter how beloved get their #'s retired.

Unless you count they were an average player, but then became a very good coach/manager, but just true average players no matter how beloved do not get their #'s retired.

If so the Cubs would have retired Buckner, DeJesus, Mark Grace, among others.

Gotta put up numbers.

But Pettite, maybe Michael Young (Texas), Jimmy Wynn (Houston), Strawberry & Gooden (Mets) are among the weakest out there compared to the Greats of the game that have their #'s retired.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

No, no average players no matter how beloved get their #'s retired.

Unless you count they were an average player, but then became a very good coach/manager, but just true average players no matter how beloved do not get their #'s retired.

If so the Cubs would have retired Buckner, DeJesus, Mark Grace, among others.

Gotta put up numbers.

But Pettite, maybe Michael Young (Texas), Jimmy Wynn (Houston) are among the weakest out there compared to the Greats of the game that have their #'s retired..

While of course there some intangibles, it seems to me stats are the foundation and the most important consideration.

[packs]

A lot of the Yankees have their number retired because of what they meant to the team. There are 23 numbers retired and 10 of them are not HOFers. One of the HOFers is Phil Rizzuto.

The Red Sox retired Johnny Pesky’s number.

The Angels retired Jim Fregosi’s number.

The Astros have retired 9 numbers of which 3 are HOFers.

The Guardians retired Mel Harder’s number.

There are other examples as well. It all depends on how you feel about sometimes all stars and whether you’re a fan of that team.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

1911- you and the facts have again parted company, you aren’t as level headed and unbiased as you claim. PEDs are one of a laundry list of reasons this tool isn’t getting what he craves. You’re wrong, it’s a cited reason but not the only reason. That’s the beauty of Arod- you can’t swing a stick without hitting a reason to dislike him. You 2 are alike in that regard. Try harder. Trent King

Off topic! This post deviates from the OP, and is thus off topic. Get on topic

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

A lot of the Yankees have their number retired because of what they meant to the team. There are 23 numbers retired and 10 of them are not HOFers. One of the HOFers is Phil Rizzuto.

The Red Sox retired Johnny Pesky’s number.

The Angels retired Jim Fregosi’s number.

The Astros have retired 9 numbers of which 3 are HOFers.

The Guardians retired Mel Harder’s number.

There are other examples as well. It all depends on how you feel about sometimes all stars and whether you’re a fan of that team.

True, but Pesky, Harder & Fregosi were all coaches/managers after their playing careers were over, so they stayed with their organization, so they didn't get their number retired by playing career only.

[packs]

The Twins retired Hrbek’s number. The Padres did Randy Jones. The White Sox have Konerko and Buerhle. Willie Horton on the Tigers. Frank White on the Royals. It’s a fan service and if you’re loved it gets to be about more than stats.

[Hxcmilkshake]

They barely acknowledged his 500th HR, so his #s not getting retired

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

The Twins retired Hrbek’s number. The Padres did Randy Jones. The White Sox have Konerko and Buerhle. Willie Horton on the Tigers. Frank White on the Royals. It’s a fan service and if you’re loved it gets to be about more than stats.

Right, all guys similar to Pettite, Gooden, etc., put up good, not HOF numbers, with their team and had long careers mostly with that team that retired their number.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's consider this question: how many players statistically comparable to ARod have NOT had their numbers retired, assuming they played a long stretch with one team and I think all probably did?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's consider this question: how many players statistically comparable to ARod have NOT had their numbers retired, assuming they played a long stretch with one team and I think all probably did?

Sammy Sosa

[packs]

Roger Clemens doesn’t have his number retired.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's consider this question: how many players statistically comparable to ARod have NOT had their numbers retired, assuming they played a long stretch with one team and I think all probably did?

There probably aren't any. Which goes to show how much Yankees fans hate A-Rod.

They won't retire his jersey in spite of the uniquely awesome stats that he compiled for their team.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's consider this question: how many players statistically comparable to ARod have NOT had their numbers retired, assuming they played a long stretch with one team and I think all probably did?

Which players do you consider statistically comparable to A-Rod?


Somebody's gotta be the canary in the coal mine.

[packs]

Manny Ramirez doesn't have his number retired by anyone either.

I would think Manny and Clemens are at least in the same talent realm, right? And they both had long stretches with singular teams but also managed to bother a lot of people along the way. Sounds familiar....

[D. Bergin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...etired_numbers



Pretty good history of retired numbers. Also includes comments on numbers that were not officially retired but were also never re-issued by the team to another player (ie. Clemens with the Red Sox and Jim Gantner with the Brewers).

Some teams have retired the same number for multiple players (ie. #31 for the Cubs - Greg Maddux and Fergie Jenkins).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Manny Ramirez doesn't have his number retired by anyone either.

I would think Manny and Clemens are at least in the same talent realm, right? And they both had long stretches with singular teams but also managed to bother a lot of people along the way. Sounds familiar....

Interesting that Bonds, despite the PEDs and not exactly being popular lol, got his number retired.

[packs]

Bonds was very popular with Giants fans despite everything involved with him.

I don't think the Bay Area had a more beloved player until Steph Curry came along.

[Shoeless Moe]

Pete Rose #14 is retired with the Reds.

[Shoeless Moe]

How the hell is Nolan Ryan's number retired with the Rangers, he didn't start pitching for them until he was 42 years old.


Other than guys who died young he has to have the least amount of playing years with a team to get their number retired by that team.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting that Bonds, despite the PEDs and not exactly being popular lol, got his number retired.

I think the Yankees should sign Barry to a 2 day contract next year, give him #13 (A-Rod's old number) on the first day, and #25 on the 2nd day. Then retire #25 in honor of both Barry and his dad Bobby (who played one pretty good year with the Yankees).

They could even include Mark Texeira, Tommy John, Joe Girardi, Don Baylor, Hank Bauer, Gleyber Torres, Brian Doyle, Jason Giambi and Joe Pepitone in the ceremony, and make a ceremonial monument honoring all the "greats", who put on #25 for the Yankees.

Gleyber Torres of course, would have to find a new uniform number for next year however.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Bonds was very popular with Giants fans despite everything involved with him.

I don't think the Bay Area had a more beloved player until Steph Curry came along.

I did not know that. Then again, I saw him not long ago on a documentary about Mays, and he could not have been more personable, took me by surprise.

[jingram058]

Back on topic, there's zero chance #13 gets retired by the Yankees.

[Shoeless Moe]

What if the Yankees trade for Julio Rodriguez give him #13, he plays 10 years, has a great career with the Yankees, and he only says things that makes Yankees fan smile.

Then they can retire #13 in honor of Rodriguez.

Just keep this on the downlow from Alex.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Good morning net54ers-

The topic is ARod, not Pettitte, "other guys", etc.


Trent King

And yet... you aren't getting cranky at the people who are discussing pettitte..

Just a little "discernment"

[ClementeFanOh]

Steve- it’s like trying to stop a dam from leaking with my thumb. You are late to this parade of sadness. There are people on this board who deserve to be countered, it gets old. Focus isn’t that difficult. Trent King

[G1911]

Foul, completely off topic.