1910 Cleveland Naps Team panorama question

[Angyale]

I picked this up at the 2014 National from a NY dealer. Its 5” tall by 17” wide and on thick paper/thin cardboard with a blank back. It appears to consist of thick ink with no dot pattern. Maybe a lithograph? The new League Park opened in 1910 so I thought it might have been a giveaway for that occassion or it might have been an insert in a paper. However, Elmer Flick isnt in the photo so it rules out the early season roster. The photographer, Haines, is from Conneaut, Ohio. Ive seen this photo online, but not in the same format and composition. Any help would be appreciated. Any idea where/how/when it was distributed?

Thanks, Angyale

[Hankphenom]

I've seen a colorized Cleveland panorama with Jackson that was a newspaper insert, but can't say if that was the same image as this one. I'm not liking the color of this one, a similar yellowing found on a generation of fakes/repros from a few years ago.

[Angyale]

Hank,

I bought it in 2014. Seller at National in 2014 got it from an auction house lot. Not sure if it was Leelands, Heritage, or whichever, and I sure wish I saved the provenance info. There is a 1910 panorama of the exact same photo on Christie’s website that sold for over $6k in 2016. Mine is much smaller. I’m going to do a deep dive into the archives of whatever auction houses I can find online.

Angyale

[Angyale]

It in the September 1, 2013 Mears Online Auction. Lot #249. It’s my exact item. Is Mears knowledgeable with regard to prewar photographic items? Hank, the colorized panorama you are referring to was a supplement to a Cleveland paper from somewhere between 1911 and 1913 as I recall.

Angyale

[Leon]

What does it say in that lower right hand corner? Looks like a supplement...but maybe not.
.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

What does it say in that lower right hand corner? Looks like a supplement...but maybe not..

If it is period, about which I have my doubts, it's most certainly a supplement or insert of some kind; there's nothing about it that resembles an original type 1 photo.

[Angyale]

Leon, it says “copyright 1910 by the Haines Photo Co. Conneaut, O(hio).”

Hank, nowhere in this thread do I state that it’s an original Type 1 photo. The original Type 1 (or at least one of them) sold at Christie’s in 2016 as I’ve already mentioned in this thread. I also posted the Mears auction that this exact item came from. It is possible that in 1910 that someone (Haines?, a Cleveland Newspaper?, etc.) could have created a lithograph that resembles a photo, but not be an actual photo. I don’t think I’m going too far out on a limb or being too reckless to suggest this. Is there any way to date the ink without spending a crazy amount of money? I contacted Troy with Mears yesterday and he said in an email to me “these were printed in very limited quantities and distributed to players. Most teams have less than a handful of known examples”. Now I cant prove or disprove this statement, and Troy didn’t tell me how/where he got this info from. Also puzzling is why wasn’t that info included in the 2013 Mears auction description as you would think it would be an important selling point. So I’m back to where I started. When, where, how, and for what reason was it made?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Angyale

Hank, nowhere in this thread do I state that it’s an original Type 1 photo.

I was responding to Leon's post, not yours. And you are correct, the mysteries continue. It's hard to see how Troy can have no backup for the quite specific claims he made as to its origins. And I believe the colorized panorama I referenced was from a 1913 Cleveland newspaper, perhaps the Plain Dealer, so you are also correct about it not having any relation to this.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

Hello.

Going back to the days when Dave Bushing was very active in purchasing collections which originated direct from player estates, I was privy to several of these (various teams and years), both in real photographic and paper stock. "These" refer to the panoramic sized photos. Since these were originating directly from the players families, I am comfortable with this information being accurate. I personally viewed an oversized paper stock Chicago Whales photo and 1929 Philadelphia A's which originated from families in Milwaukee. I cannot say with certainty this was not a premium, and my response to the poster was a quick answer to an email I received and not intended to serve as official comment. I am confident these were issued to some players during the era, but I cannot say it was exclusive to players. My personal belief, without documentation to support, is these were player only. Regards, Troy

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

Hello. Going back to the days when Dave Bushing was very active in purchasing collections which originated direct from player estates, I was privy to several of these (various teams and years), both in real photographic and paper stock. "These" refer to the panoramic sized photos. Since these were originating directly from the players families, I am comfortable with this information being accurate. I personally viewed an oversized paper stock Chicago Whales photo and 1929 Philadelphia A's which originated from families in Milwaukee. I cannot say with certainty this was not a premium, and my response to the poster was a quick answer to an email I received and not intended to serve as official comment. I am confident these were issued to some players during the era, but I cannot say it was exclusive to players. My personal belief, without documentation to support, is these were player only. Regards, Troy

Hi Troy, that's a lot to digest. So you have seen other of "these"--not type I photos but yellowed paper copies of the style seen here-originating from player estates over a span of years from Cleveland in 1910 to the 29 A's and in-between with the Whales and maybe others? This implies some kind of standard paper copy process for teams to make "these" for players only. But they could also be premiums of some kind? In either case, there should be multiple examples from other auctions over the years, and perhaps there are and I just don't remember seeing them, a distinct possibility. I have no dog in this hunt, but I have handled a lot of paper stuff over the years and am familiar, as you must be also, with the generation of similarly yellowed paper-stock repros, mostly of negro league teams, that have been floating around for some time now. There have been numerous threads about these on Net54 over the years from victims inquiring about the legitimacy of their pieces, and I have thrown in my two cents worth of knowledge when I thought it might do some good. If I'm wrong in this case, I apologize in advance, but without more to go on, color me still skeptical about this one.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

I am not making a claim that the photo discussed is authentic, as I have not reviewed it. I am just stating that I have seen paper versions which can be traced to directly to players, which leads me to believe these are not premiums but issued to players. I know the one we auctioned several years ago was original, and not a repro.
troy

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

I am not making a claim that the photo discussed is authentic, as I have not reviewed it. I am just stating that I have seen paper versions which can be traced to directly to players, which leads me to believe these are not premiums but issued to players. I know the one we auctioned several years ago was original, and not a repro.
troy

The OP posted that this IS the one from a Mears auction several years ago, so I guess you are in effect authenticating it. I would go back to the original question of how you know this: is it because Dave said it was, or the player said it was, or it came from a player's estate, or you've seen similar examples from other player's estates, or what? You're about as knowledgeable a hobby dealer as there is, and your certitude is impressive, but if it was my piece, especially in light of the prevalence of all those similar looking repros/fakes some years ago, I'd want some backup. How about another example, or even a similar example, with ironclad provenance from one of the hundreds of auctions over the years?

[murphusa]

Similar ones that were akin to the size stated for the Phila A's were gifted to players, etc during reunions in the 60's

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Similar ones that were akin to the size stated for the Phila A's were gifted to players, etc during reunions in the 60's

I recall hearing the same thing about 15 years ago. Not sure if it applies to this particular piece, but is a potential scenario.

[Angyale]

Wouldn’t most of these guys have been in their 70s to 90s (or already dead) in the 1960s? As such, realistically, how many players would have even shown up for a reunion say even in 1960? Would it have even been worthwhile to print these for a reunion? Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Angyale

[perezfan]

I think I read it in a Mastro or Leland’s description back in the day. Could have been 1950s as opposed to ‘60s… not positive.

[murphusa]

My source was Eddie Collins Jr.

[Angyale]

Died in 1951. Why would he be invited to any reunions in the 1960s?

Angyale

[bigfanNY]

Eddie Collins Jr. Died in 2000 and I imagine he would have been invited to a number of occasions where his dad and / or the teams he played on were honored.

[TheBig6]

When I was about 10yrs old my parents and I would visit Mr. Myatt at his home. He had a long 1926 Cleveland Indians Panorama picture on the wall. Mgr. Speaker in the middle. Each players name was below their image just like the OP pic.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Eddie Collins Jr. Died in 2000 and I imagine he would have been invited to a number of occasions where his dad and / or the teams he played on were honored.

thanks, yes I was referring to Collin's son who lived in the town I lived in as did his father and Jimmie Foxx

Eddie Jr also coached a local high school team for many years

[Hankphenom]

I'd love to hear what Henry Yee had to say about this piece.