Sam Jones Help (Baseball)

[stat192]

There were 2 Sam Jones who played, one who debuted in 1914 and one who debuted in 1951.

The 14 Sam Jones called himself Sad Sam Jones. I have the below autograph which I always thought was the 1951 Sam Jones, but it is signed Sad Sam Jones.

The GPC is postmarked from Cleveland on May 20, 1952, and the 1951 Jones was playing for Cleveland that year.

So which Sam Jones do I have, and if it is the 1951 one, why would he sign his name Sad Sam Jones.

Please help.

IMG.jpg

IMG_0001.jpg

[Republicaninmass]

I believe they were both Sad Sam, and that looks like the earlier player. The latter player his signature is not as clean, but is is rare and havent seen more than a few

[stat192]

that is what is confusing me i think its the earlier player but whats the chance of having a postmark from cleveland ohio in 1952

[Republicaninmass]

One in 50

[uga1980]

The autograph you have is of Sam Jones who pitched for the Cleveland Indians who was also referred to as "toothpick". There was a thread discussing the two variances on net54 before but I don't recall the actual post date.

[uga1980]

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=158940

[David Atkatz]

Here is the earlier, former Yankee, Sam Jones.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by uga1980

The autograph you have is of Sam Jones who pitched for the Cleveland Indians who was also referred to as "toothpick". There was a thread discussing the two variances on net54 before but I don't recall the actual post date.

The guy who was supposedly illiterate ?

Aaaand (from the thread) "whats odd is BOTH Sam Jones have similar signature slants up and to the right"


I'd wager the PSA examples with smooth writing are forgeries, as well as the 2 sgc signed slabbed examples

[stat192]

Thank you all for your replies, everyone on this board is amazing

[etsmith]

So which Sam Jones would this autograph be?

Sam P. Jones Baseball.jpg

[Scott Garner]

Your check is signed Samuel P (Pond) Jones, which is Sad Sam.
For a reference point, here is a payroll check that I own of Sad Sam that is dated 1925.

Believe it or not, I purchased this check from a collector in Japan at least 13-15 years ago.
Collecting prewar vintage baseball is truly an international hobby.

I hope this helps!

[etsmith]

It doesn't look much like the one on the 3x5 card a couple of posts up.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by etsmith

It doesn't look much like the one on the 3x5 card a couple of posts up.

Hi Ed,
As strange as it may seem, it was not an unusual practice for some players to use a more formal signature with more "flourish" when their signature was requested from friends, someone of note or occasionally a collector. Sad Sam Jones (Samuel Pond Jones) and Lefty Grove are great examples of this practice.

Here is an early vintage signed index card of Sad Sam that I own, that also shows his beautiful signature with the flourish that I mentioned.

Also for extra context, I will show an example of Lefty Grove's formal autograph. Compare it to about 95% of every Grove signature that you see on eBay and you can see there is a HUGE difference.

I hope this helps!

[etsmith]

The Sam Jones is a really attractive signature, but most players back then had really great handwriting unlike today's players.

[Scott Garner]

So true!

[frankhardy]

I know this thread is over a year old, but I thought I would add my 2 cents. I have been researching this topic recently due to my Topps Cardinals autograph collection. I am about 95% complete from 1952 - 2019 with most of the 95% that is missing is from 2003 and up. I have recently resorted to cut signatures glued to the card for the absolute toughest ones. Then if and when one comes available I would replace with an "on card" signature. I have done this on 15 cards (with another in the works), including 3 of the 4 1952 Topps high numbers (Les Fusselman d. 1970; Eddie Yuhas d. 1986; Hal Rice d. 1997). I already had a 1952 Wilmer Mizell on card.

Others that I have used cut signatures on are -

1953 Topps Eddie Yuhas d. 1986
1953 Topps Hal Rice d. 1997
1953 Topps Les Fusselman d. 1970
1957 Topps Sam Jones d. 1971
1958 Topps Herm Wehmeier d. 1973
1958 Topps Sam Jones d. 1971
1959 Topps Sam Jones d. 1971 (in the works)
1960 Topps Coaches Harry Walker d. 1999 (other three are on card on 2 different cards)
1964 Topps Johnny Keane d. 1967
2000 Topps Traded Darryl Kile d. 2002
2001 Topps Darryl Kile d. 2002
2002 Topps Darryl Kile d. 2002

After researching this for a few weeks, this is what I have come up with.

Both Sam Jones' were nicknamed "Sad" Sam. If you look on the back of the latter's 1957 Topps card, it calls him "Sad" Sam. The latter is also known as "Toothpick" Sam per the back of his 1958 Topps card because he always had a toothpick in his mouth.

This is also confirmed by a SABR article (The Society of American Baseball Research).

Even though both signatures are slanted, there is a distinct difference between the first, older Sam Jones (Samuel Pond Jones) and the second, younger Sam Jones. The very first index card is definitely NOT the first, earlier "Sad" Sam Jones. It is attributed to Toothpick Jones, who sometimes signed his name "Sad" Sam to pay homage to the earlier "Sad" Sam.

The only question is why did the latter Sam Jones (my concern because he played for the Cardinals) have 2 different signatures and changed back and forth?

There is evidence that he changed back and forth. If you look at his facsimile signatures on the front of his 1952 Topps and the back of his 1953 Topps are the slanted and fluid signatures while the facsimile signatures on his 1956 Topps and 1959 Topps have the "funky" J style.