Local John Stockton Mask Controversy

[todeen]

Local controversy about John Stockton finally reached a boiling point. The entire season, while students have been required to wear masks, and just recently GU stopped selling food and drink, John Stockton has refused to wear a mask at games. And every game - even nationally televised - the TV station has panned on him to show that he is in attendance. Locals have been writing in anger about it in the the opinion column. It's become a black eye for GU. There is no bigger public celebrity in Spokane besides John Stockton. Even though he is retired, he is very involved in the community. His kids did AAU, he brought them out when the YMCA hosted punt pass and kick, he shows up at Hoopfest. Really, it's just quite amazing he would decide to tarnish his public reputation like he has. Obviously it's about money. And I suppose there were finally enough donors that complained to the point the school had to take action.

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[Carter08]

Stockton is my favorite player of all time, followed by Malone. Pretty disappointed to see this from him. I imagine some people might like him more for it though.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Perhaps he and Kyrie Irving should start a basketball/epidemiology podcast.

[Carter08]

Aaron Rodgers has some time on his hands now too.

Go Buffalo.

[Cliff Bowman]

Mr. Stockton needs to pull up stakes and flee to Florida or Texas.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Mr. Stockton needs to pull up stakes and flee to Florida or Texas.

Idaho is right next door. That's where GU coach Few got his DUI.

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[todeen]

Wanted to include part of Stockton's interview. It's long, so go find it online if you're interested.

Spokesman: "Do you mention in one of those podcasts that six years into your NBA career... you decided to stop using traditional medicine..."

Stockton: "Yeah, it wasn't cold turkey, I've had cortisone shots, I've taken anti-biotics. Antibiotics saved my life probably twice... So it's not strictly anti-medicine. I tend toward a holistic style. Again, it's very difficult in this world to do it. Insurance doesn't pay for it, it's treating the body - understanding what the body needs instead of treating a symptom with medications and chemicals. It's what I've chosen from that point forward."

Spokesman: "Was there an experience that forced you to start filming that way?"

Stockton: "Yeah, multiple experiences. One is, I took anti-inflammatants for about a year and a half and some of that is what they call pulsing. So they take a course for 15 days then you take 10 days off. It's funny that comes up because one of those anti-inflammatants I took is now banned. You went through all the ten years of testing to be tested okay and approved by the FDA. Then it was later banned because it ruined people's hearts. That was one of the ones I took for a long time..."

Spokesman: "Is there anything else you'd want to say about any of this?"

Stockton: "...[Gonzaga] currently requires vaccines... Those children and kids their age, they have literally zero statistical risk of being harmed by the disease, and they have significant statistical risk of being harmed by the side effects of the so-called vaccines.

And I think it's highly recorded now, there's 150 I believe now - is over 100 professional athletes dead, professional athletes, the prime of their life, dropping dead that are vaccinated, right on the pitch, right on the field, right on the court. There's 20k deaths from the vaccine that the CDC acknowledges from their VAERS system, which they acknowledge amounts for 1% of actual. So the actual numbers more than likely are much larger than that, but that's what they're actually willing to concede. They shut down previous vaccine systems for 25 deaths and we're still over 20k again that they concede. Over a million injuries..."

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[jayshum]

The VAERS system that Stockton refers to is a web site where anyone can report an adverse event following a vaccination. There is no initial verification that what is reported actually happened or that it was caused by a vaccine, but there can be an attempt for further investigation to determine if there is a true cause from a vaccine. From what has been looked into, there is nowhere near 20K deaths caused by the COVID vaccines acknowledged by the CDC, but that seems to be a popular talking point for the anti-vaccine side.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/

From the FAQ page:

Limitations of VAERS:

It is generally not possible to find out from VAERS data if a vaccine caused the adverse event
Reports submitted to VAERS often lack details and sometimes contains errors
Serious adverse events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events
Numbers of reports may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness
VAERS data cannot be used to determine rates of adverse events

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

The VAERS system that Stockton refers to is a web site where anyone can report an adverse event following a vaccination. There is no initial verification that what is reported actually happened or that it was caused by a vaccine, but there can be an attempt for further investigation to determine if there is a true cause from a vaccine. From what has been looked into, there is nowhere near 20K deaths caused by the COVID vaccines acknowledged by the CDC, but that seems to be a popular talking point for the anti-vaccine side.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/

From the FAQ page:

Limitations of VAERS:

It is generally not possible to find out from VAERS data if a vaccine caused the adverse event
Reports submitted to VAERS often lack details and sometimes contains errors
Serious adverse events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events
Numbers of reports may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness
VAERS data cannot be used to determine rates of adverse events

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes true, right?

[clydepepper]

I'm still in a lot of pain because my hip-replacement surgery was cancelled at the last minute due to the virus.


So, I don't give a DAMN about the rights of those who decide not to get vaccinated!!


.

[irv]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm still in a lot of pain because my hip-replacement surgery was cancelled at the last minute due to the virus.


So, I don't give a DAMN about the rights of those who decide not to get vaccinated!!


.

Yeah, those stupid, ignorant anti-vaxxers!!!!
"""1073 cases in the fully vaccinated hospitalized compared to 417 in the unvaccinated""
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/149331

https://twitter.com/NickFondacaro/st...72856409354250
https://twitter.com/itsonlychoclat/s...g-icu-bed-data

You've been lied to since the beginning. It's about time you warmed up to that fact.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by irv

Yeah, those stupid, ignorant anti-vaxxers!!!!
"""1073 cases in the fully vaccinated hospitalized compared to 417 in the unvaccinated""
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/149331

https://twitter.com/NickFondacaro/st...72856409354250
https://twitter.com/itsonlychoclat/s...g-icu-bed-data

You've been lied to since the beginning. It's about time you warmed up to that fact.

Twitter is funny.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm still in a lot of pain because my hip-replacement surgery was cancelled at the last minute due to the virus.


So, I don't give a DAMN about the rights of those who decide not to get vaccinated!!


.

So, your rights are more important than anyone elses?

[nolemmings]

QUOTE=irv;2189340]Yeah, those stupid, ignorant anti-vaxxers!!!!
"""1073 cases in the fully vaccinated hospitalized compared to 417 in the unvaccinated""
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/149331

https://twitter.com/NickFondacaro/st...72856409354250
https://twitter.com/itsonlychoclat/s...g-icu-bed-data

You've been lied to since the beginning. It's about time you warmed up to that fact.[/QUOTE]

I've seen this foolishness from you before, and marvel at your lack of understanding of basic math and probability. More than six times as many people are vaccinated as are not. Yet the difference in hospitalizations, assuming your numbers to be correct, is about two to one. Hmm, wonder why.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

QUOTE=irv;2189340]Yeah, those stupid, ignorant anti-vaxxers!!!!
"""1073 cases in the fully vaccinated hospitalized compared to 417 in the unvaccinated""
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/149331

https://twitter.com/NickFondacaro/st...72856409354250
https://twitter.com/itsonlychoclat/s...g-icu-bed-data

You've been lied to since the beginning. It's about time you warmed up to that fact.

I've seen this foolishness from you before, and marvel at your lack of understanding of basic math and probability. More than six times as many people are vaccinated as are not. Yet the difference in hospitalizations, assuming your numbers to be correct, is about two to one. Hmm, wonder why.[/QUOTE]

I was told there would be no math.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by todeen

Stockton: ". Antibiotics saved my life probably twice... So it's not strictly anti-medicine. I tend toward a holistic style. Again, it's very difficult in this world to do it. Insurance doesn't pay for it, it's treating the body - understanding what the body needs instead of treating a symptom with medications and chemicals. It's what I've chosen from that point forward."

For various reasons based on experiences within my own family, I completely understand and even agree with this philosophy.

However, I also believe in following the rules. My workplace wants me to wear a mask. So I wear a mask.
The local library or coffee shop wants me to wear a mask, I wear a mask. Or, I don't go there. It's pretty simple.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From 4 days ago, for whatever it's worth.

In one analysis of 259 hospitals and 383 emergency departments from late August through early January, a third dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine was found to reduce the odds of a hospital or emergency room visit by 94 percent during the delta wave, and by 82 percent once omicron started spreading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

For various reasons based on experiences within my own family, I completely understand and even agree with this philosophy.

However, I also believe in following the rules. My workplace wants me to wear a mask. So I wear a mask.
The local library or coffee shop wants me to wear a mask, I wear a mask. Or, I don't go there. It's pretty simple.

I think Stockton's basic preference for a holistic approach to health is fine, and my personal view is that many medications are overprescribed and less draconian treatments and prevention are underutilized. That said, I'm not sure that vaccines in a deadly pandemic, or wearing a mask, are really inconsistent with the philosophy. I belong to a practice that I would characterize as holistic but the doctors there certainly advocate vaccination and masks. I don't know about Stockton personally, but I find it interesting that many of the rabid anti-vaxxers have no problem taking heavy duty pharmaceuticals instead.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Stockton's basic preference for a holistic approach to health is fine, and my personal view is that many medications are overprescribed and less draconian treatments and prevention are underutilized. That said, I'm not sure that vaccines in a deadly pandemic, or wearing a mask, are really inconsistent with the philosophy. I belong to a practice that I would characterize as holistic but the doctors there certainly advocate vaccination and masks. I don't know about Stockton personally, but I find it interesting that many of the rabid anti-vaxxers have no problem taking heavy duty pharmaceuticals instead.

Well, my personal opinion is the people who say that "the vaccine is wrong, give me horse de-wormers or urine therapy" are listening to too many wackadoodles on the internet. Or, put a kinder way, they are putting their hatred for "(Dems, Fauci, Trump, Biden, Soros, Big Bird, Tucker, my mother, whomever)" over any reasoned science.

People who are consistent, I can support even if I don't believe the same thing.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

For various reasons based on experiences within my own family, I completely understand and even agree with this philosophy.

However, I also believe in following the rules. My workplace wants me to wear a mask. So I wear a mask.
The local library or coffee shop wants me to wear a mask, I wear a mask. Or, I don't go there. It's pretty simple.

I agree 100% on masks.

I'm not anti-vax but forcing people to inject anything into their bodies crosses a line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I agree 100% on masks.

I'm not anti-vax but forcing people to inject anything into their bodies crosses a line.

Vaccinations have been mandatory in schools forever, just the issue didn't get that much attention for obvious reasons.

[irv]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

QUOTE=irv;2189340]Yeah, those stupid, ignorant anti-vaxxers!!!!
"""1073 cases in the fully vaccinated hospitalized compared to 417 in the unvaccinated""
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/149331

https://twitter.com/NickFondacaro/st...72856409354250
https://twitter.com/itsonlychoclat/s...g-icu-bed-data

You've been lied to since the beginning. It's about time you warmed up to that fact.

I've seen this foolishness from you before, and marvel at your lack of understanding of basic math and probability. More than six times as many people are vaccinated as are not. Yet the difference in hospitalizations, assuming your numbers to be correct, is about two to one. Hmm, wonder why.[/QUOTE]

What I find foolish is people still thinking these vaccines actually work just because their T.V. screens and their corrupt and crooked gov’t and their funded media tell them they do.
What I also find foolish is that people can’t see the flip flopping, the lies, the back and forth, the moving of the goalposts, and if they do, they still don’t question anything.

Our numbers up here were, not long ago, over 11,000 to 1. Meaning, 11,000 fully vaccinated cases to 1,000 in the unvaccinated, but because many, thankfully, were starting to question that, they changed the way they reported things.
Manitoba's numbers were becoming even worse in the fully vaccinated, so now, because people were also questioning that, they now report on a 6 week average instead of providing daily reports. Things that make you go Hmm, or at least should.

Right now, up here, despite an 80% vaccination rate our cases/numbers are higher than what they were pre-vaccines?!?! But some, foolishly, still think the vaccines work, or they have been brainwashed enough to now accept that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, including being put into the ICU, and dying are now the norm and what we are now seeing is what all vaccines prior to these unapproved ones were like too.

Prior to this last lockdown we are currently in, everyone was told to get vaccinated to enjoy concerts, restaurants, seeing gramma and attending other functions that the unvaccinated wouldn’t be able to do, but, despite the mass vaccination rate of over 80%, we are locked down yet again.

Foolishly still think the vaccines work when the unvaccinated were basically house bound/locked down and not allowed to go out and mingle with the fully vaccinated? We, in case you’re wondering, despite being fully vaccinated, still have to wear masks unless seated in a restaurant. Wear them going in but once seated, because for some strange reason covid only gets you while standing/walking, you can take them off once seated.

Like I said before, the idiocy, the stupidity, the hypocrisy and all the lies are all around us, but just like a brainwashed cult, those that are in it and still blame the unvaccinated, are too deluded to even notice.

Watch this. Think you were ever being told the truth about hospitalizations?
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYhFWb1..._web_copy_link

Watch this one too. You won't see it on the news. It's Pfizer's CEO admitting on video the first 2 doses provided very little, if any, protection at all and the booster provides "reasonable" protection. Define reasonable, please.
https://youtu.be/evP8OgHU6hk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Between most of the world's governments, "the media," big pharma, hospitals, scientists and researchers, and don't forget the overwhelming majority of physicians, it's one hell of a conspiracy, damn. I wonder how often they hold meetings? "They" must have to meet often, to make sure everyone's on board with disseminating the same lies and misinformation, no?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Vaccinations have been mandatory in schools forever, just the issue didn't get that much attention for obvious reasons.

Yes, the ones that prevent terrible diseases, not ones that simply mitigate one, like a yearly flu shot.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Vaccinations have been mandatory in schools forever, just the issue didn't get that much attention for obvious reasons.

Those vaccines - MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, Measels etc. actually prevent you from getting those diseases. These covid vaxxes do not do that and thus should probably be called therepeutics.

But that would not help the various narratives....

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Between most of the world's governments, "the media," big pharma, hospitals, scientists and researchers, and don't forget the overwhelming majority of physicians, it's one hell of a conspiracy, damn. I wonder how often they hold meetings? "They" must have to meet often, to make sure everyone's on board with disseminating the same lies and misinformation, no?

Without trying to get political, which countries and/or states, blue or red, seem to be pushing this agenda, passports and mandates, more than the other?
Liberal gov't up here and south of me. Australia and France, to name a couple others. I am unsure so don't shoot me, but if I am not mistaken, these countries/states have the most draconian rules in place, no?
I said it in the other thread. I honestly don't believe this is about covid nor the vaccines. They are, imo, just a means to an end for the global reset, the agenda 2030 movement.
How can an honest, for the people gov't, push/coerce a vaccine on its citizens and require mandates and passports when once vaccinated you can still contract and spread the disease you're vaccinated against?? It makes zero sense.
https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/stat...C92aCxop8pAAAA

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Yes, the ones that prevent terrible diseases, not ones that simply mitigate one, like a yearly flu shot.

And those were all tested and verified to be safe, which likely took years, before they were released to the general public. They are not unapproved EUA only vaccines like these covid ones are. It's amazing how many still don't understand that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Those vaccines - MMR, Polio, Chicken Pox, Measels etc. actually prevent you from getting those diseases. These covid vaxxes do not do that and thus should probably be called therepeutics.

But that would not help the various narratives....

Agreed, scientifically speaking, but the CDC has now changed the definition of a vaccine. I thought this was odd on day one -- it actually might have helped public acceptance more calling it a therapeutic rather than a vaccine since that term has a built in negative connotation for some?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dale, Pfizer got final approval in the US anyhow back in the summer.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...vid-19-vaccine

[BobC]

As much as old cliches and adages are often viewed as stupid, biased, discriminatory, and just plain wrong in our current world, the sad truth is they were likely borne from real life events, circumstances, and observed actions and tendencies, and more often than not have a lot of actual truth and reality to support them, or at least did at some time in the past. But they are/were still never truly 100% accurate, which gives all the naysayers and opponents the ability to argue, fight, and complain about them with at least some degree of accuracy and righteousness. One of my all-time favorites is usually expressed as a short riddle.

How can you tell whenever a politician is lying..................their lips are moving!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

As much as old cliches and adages are often viewed as stupid, biased, discriminatory, and just plain wrong in our current world, the sad truth is they were likely borne from real life events, circumstances, and observed actions and tendencies, and more often than not have a lot of actual truth and reality to support them, or at least did at some time in the past. But they are/were still never truly 100% accurate, which gives all the naysayers and opponents the ability to argue, fight, and complain about them with at least some degree of accuracy and righteousness. One of my all-time favorites is usually expressed as a short riddle.

How can you tell whenever a politician is lying..................their lips are moving!

Yeah same joke told as to lawyers.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dale, Pfizer got final approval in the US anyhow back in the summer.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...vid-19-vaccine

No they didn't, Peter. They got approval for a vaccine called cormirnaty, which, if you do some digging, isn't available anywhere.
It's another lie, another one of hundreds so far that has been used to fool and trick the public into thinking the Pfizer vaccine has been approved.

If there is an "approved" vaccine then all others in use under EUA must be removed. That is the law.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepar...vid-19-vaccine

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah same joke told as to lawyers.

Like all jokes, they are loosely based on truths

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah same joke told as to lawyers.

Hmmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that around 60% of those in Congress are attorneys/have law degrees, and something like 59% of all US Presidents were lawyers?


Actually, I always thought the preferred lawyer joke was:

What do you call 100,000 lawyers at the bottom of the lake/ocean.................a good start!


Feel free to come back with any well known CPA joke/cliche/adage............if you can find one! LOL

And I always liked and felt you could trust Harry Truman, he sold hats and suits, and is the only President since the 20th century began to not have gone to college!

[irv]

Any vaccinated individuals still believe they are not just Guinea pigs for Fauci and big Pharma?
And some still don't think these covid vaccines, despite the fully vaccinated hospitalization numbers, the ICU admissions and deaths deplete, not enhance ones immune system.
https://www.facebook.com/555416934/v...81669697164866

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by irv

I honestly don't believe this is about covid nor the vaccines. They are, imo, just a means to an end for the global reset, the agenda 2030 movement.

The what now?

[butchie_t]

Feel free to come back with any well known CPA joke/cliche/adage............if you can find one!

I would like to…..but the numbers just don’t add up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many accountants does it take to change a light bulb?

100. 1 to change it, 9 to do the audit, and 90 to bore everyone telling them about it.

alternate answer

How many did it take last year?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Between most of the world's governments, "the media," big pharma, hospitals, scientists and researchers, and don't forget the overwhelming majority of physicians, it's one hell of a conspiracy, damn. I wonder how often they hold meetings? "They" must have to meet often, to make sure everyone's on board with disseminating the same lies and misinformation, no?

Peter, you have no idea how vast the conspiracy extends. You will soon though, as Mike Lindell will get on the case, to expose the REAL Big Lie. No more pillow talk. I hear maybe even JFK, Jr. will get involved, in case his old man is indisposed (or decomposed).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Peter, you have no idea how vast the conspiracy extends. You will soon though, as Mike Lindell will get on the case, to expose the REAL Big Lie. No more pillow talk. I hear maybe even JFK, Jr. will get involved, in case his old man is indisposed (or decomposed).

Speaking of which even RFK Jr. is apologizing for his disgraceful comments over the past couple of days invoking the Holocaust.

[irv]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

The what now?

What has been going on while we've all been distracted by other things.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/our...t-great-reset/
https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustai...elopment_Goals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fp0Jeyjvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz--5LTTmaM

[Peter_Spaeth]

Today Prince Charles, tomorrow the world. Fertile ground for conspiracy theorists for sure.

[nolemmings]

This Headline from the Wall Street Journal a couple of hours ago:

Covid-19 Deaths in the U.S. Top 2,100 a Day, Highest in Nearly a Year
--Omicron variant, though milder for some patients, is spreading with record-breaking speed.

Damn that flu. Of course, don't believe it. The WSJ is secretly run by George Soros. And Big Pharma. And the physicians. And the MSM. And the Libs. And Hollywood. And Academia. We need Mike Lindell to get the 300 million or so Americans (in name only) responsible for these lies put behind bars. NOW

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This Headline from the Wall Street Journal a couple of hours ago:

Covid-19 Deaths in the U.S. Top 2,100 a Day, Highest in Nearly a Year
--Omicron variant, though milder for some patients, is spreading with record-breaking speed.

Damn that flu. Of course, don't believe it. The WSJ is secretly run by George Soros. And Big Pharma. And the physicians. And the MSM. And the Libs. And Hollywood. And Academia. We need Mike Lindell to get the 300 million or so Americans (in name only) responsible for these lies put behind bars. NOW

I blame Greta Thunberg. It's all a ruse to distract attention from climate change.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by irv

What has been going on while we've all been distracted by other things.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/our...t-great-reset/
https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustai...elopment_Goals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fp0Jeyjvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz--5LTTmaM

I wouldn't watch a Trump or Trudeau speech if you paid me, but I skimmed through the rest of it. What is your theory, exactly?

[earlywynnfan]

Maybe urine therapy is the way to go??

[clydepepper]

Please excuse my rant...those of you who have experienced the kind of pain I'm in may understand.





.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many accountants does it take to change a light bulb?

100. 1 to change it, 9 to do the audit, and 90 to bore everyone telling them about it.

alternate answer

How many did it take last year?

LOL. Very good, will have to remember that onel.

[irv]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Peter, you have no idea how vast the conspiracy extends. You will soon though, as Mike Lindell will get on the case, to expose the REAL Big Lie. No more pillow talk. I hear maybe even JFK, Jr. will get involved, in case his old man is indisposed (or decomposed).

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Today Prince Charles, tomorrow the world. Fertile ground for conspiracy theorists for sure.

Who/what convinced you two to get vaccinated?
Was it Bill Gates, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, Racheal Maddow, Dr. Monica Ghandi, Joe Biden or Dr. Fauci himself?
Funny, isn't it, but not likely to you two, that they're all back peddling now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8n9GpftejE

Is it possible, even slightly, that you 2 are also suffering with mass formation psychosis? Nah, never, just another conspiracy theory, right.

[Kzoo]

A lot of people have woken up over the past couple years to the actions of the criminal syndicate, but to those still sleeping... what do you think came first, the virus or the vaccine?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

A lot of people have woken up over the past couple years to the actions of the criminal syndicate, but to those still sleeping... what do you think came first, the virus or the vaccine?

Which criminal syndicate is that? There are so many these days.