Restored Honus Wagner at SCP Auctions

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

AHs do a number of things they obviously believe help them and their consignors--what are the bidders, anyway, chopped liver? You know, the ones that actually pay the bills!--that are of dubious effectiveness, not to mention integrity, in my mind. I've always thought that their ridiculously low estimates, intended to spur more interest among bidders, might actually do the reverse, making some feel stupid to be making bids too far ahead of the estimates by the supposed pros, the AHs. Just play it straight across the board, don't try to overthink the process, and let the cards play as they lay--what a unique approach that would be! Out of curiosity, are there any AHs that do that?

I've been trying not to make threads like this about me, but you asked

We run auctions with low starting bids and no reserves, hidden, stated or otherwise. We don't even do pre-auction estimates because you, the bidders, tell me what the item is worth, not the other way around. Our name is The Collector Connection because it is our goal to get cards into the hands of collectors. If we make our bidders happy they will in turn make our consignors happy. That's our philosophy.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Unfortunately every auction house does what they think is best for their client base.

I know that both Heritage Auctions and SCP both say there is a reserve and when it is met
Heritage does it a few days prior that a Reserve was met or not met
SCP upfront post that there is a Reserve and when it is met it lets you know.

I thought there was another 1 or 2 but I am drawing a blank

Mile High high does also. I personally do not have a problem with it as long as they disclose it. Here is the text from the MHCC website:

d) Minimum Bids- Each and every lot within the auction does have a minimum bid designated in both the catalog as well as online. A very few of the lots in the auction have a reserve price (please note the vast majority of the lots within the auction do not have a reserve price) A reserve price is the confidential minimum price that a consignor will accept before they will sell the material, this means that a bid of equal or greater than the confidential reserve must be placed for a successful bid to be accepted on that lot. MHCC may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consignor and may place a bid up to the amount of the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. In the limited instances where MHCC has a financial interest in a lot beyond our commission, we may place a bid to protect our financial interest. Reserves when in place will be pre-determined and set within the auction software prior to the start of the auction. Again, please note the vast majority of the lots in every auction will be offered without a confidential reserve in place. For all items in the auction (unless an item is withdrawn during the auction)without a reserve, they will be sold to the highest bidder at or above the minimum bid.

[MattyC]

I was bidding on something at SCP and once I saw how they handle their reserves, I ran for the hills and now refuse to bid with them anymore.

As others have nailed in prior posts within this thread, it is the false perception of demand that they are creating that is the problem.

I had competing bids coming in on the item in question, and there is no way for me to tell if these are real buyers and thus real demand for the item at a certain price point, or if I am just the only moron willing to pay a certain amount and the house is just stringing me along. Hard pass.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If we make our bidders happy they will in turn make our consignors happy. That's our philosophy.

Kudos to you, Scott. Seems like common sense and good business practice to me, too. But I'll bet that 95% of the complaints on Net54 over the years have come from bidders about the way they've been treated by AHs and sellers in general. It's a testament to the sway collecting has over us that we slough it off, try to learn to be smarter about how we go about it, and continue to patronize those who have the stuff we want almost no matter how much they abuse us in the process. I'd be hard pressed to name another form of enterprise in which those types would continue to get my business after they had pissed me off even once.

[cgjackson222]

[QUOTE=timzcardz;2153575]I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


Hahaha, thank you for pointing that out. They either didn't know the meaning, or it was a Freudian slip.

By the way, they have apparently since update the description to remove the "pen" and left the "ultimate"
https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909...-LOT48850.aspx

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Kudos to you, Scott. Seems like common sense and good business practice to me, too. But I'll bet that 95% of the complaints on Net54 over the years have come from bidders about the way they've been treated by AHs and sellers in general. It's a testament to the sway collecting has over us that we slough it off, try to learn to be smarter about how we go about it, and continue to patronize those who have the stuff we want almost no matter how much they abuse us in the process. I'd be hard pressed to name another form of enterprise in which those types would continue to get my business after they had pissed me off even once.

Thanks, I had someone ask does the philosophy work the other way around (make the consignors happy and you will make the bidders happy) Maybe in the sense that you might attract better consignments which might make bidders happy, but other than that I don't think it works both ways.

That being said my fiduciary duty IS to the consignor, I just think the best way to serve them is to not have bidders questioning our integrity!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Thanks, I had someone ask does the philosophy work the other way around (make the consignors happy and you will make the bidders happy) Maybe in the sense that you might attract better consignments which might make bidders happy, but other than that I don't think it works both ways. That being said my fiduciary duty IS to the consignor, I just think the best way to serve them is to not have bidders questioning our integrity!

Maybe PT Barnum was right, but it's hard for me to see how any strategies that involve attempting to fool or manipulate bidders will benefit AHs or their consignors in the long run. Perhaps the demand for stuff is inelastic, as an economist would put it, and impervious to any of the normal restraints of the free market. But I would still want some proof that the smarter approach overall isn't to treat bidders with the respect they deserve as the ones who ultimately foot the bill.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Maybe PT Barnum was right, but it's hard for me to see how any strategies that involve attempting to fool or manipulate bidders will benefit AHs or their consignors in the long run. Perhaps the demand for stuff is inelastic, as an economist would put it, and impervious to any of the normal restraints of the free market. But I would still want some proof that the smarter approach overall isn't to treat bidders with the respect they deserve as the ones who ultimately foot the bill.

FWIW, the fact that the major auction houses (e.g., Sothebys, Christies, etc.) across all fields of collecting employ the method of hidden reserves with the house being allowed to secretly bid up to the reserve, suggests to me this method works in achieving the highest prices. That it might piss off some bidders who will therefore not bid is more than offset by the higher prices it generates among those bidders who participate. Conceptually it makes sense it would work, as it reduces the number of bidders required to achieve the desired price from two to one.

In regard to the demand curve, for the most desirable items it is very inelastic. Because of that, bidders who really want the item will knowingly choose to take the bait and bid, fearing that, even though unlikely, if there is that "real" second bidder, they will have no chance of buying the item after the auction.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

FWIW, the fact that the major auction houses (e.g., Sothebys, Christies, etc.) across all fields of collecting employ the method of hidden reserves with the house being allowed to secretly bid up to the reserve, suggests to me this method works in achieving the highest prices. That it might piss off some bidders who will therefore not bid is more than offset by the higher prices it generates among those bidders who participate. Conceptually it makes sense it would work, as it reduces the number of bidders required to achieve the desired price from two to one.

In regard to the demand curve, for the most desirable items it is very inelastic. Because of that, bidders who really want the item will knowingly choose to take the bait and bid, fearing that, even though unlikely, if there is that "real" second bidder, they will have no chance of buying the item after the auction.

The end result it is there in most Auction Houses. WE have the options both where to consign or sell our cards and we have options on where to buy or bid on cards.

There are some Auctions Houses I prefer to deal with and others I prefer to attempt to avoid. But if the Right Card that I want or need is available I might need to bid/buy from an Auction House I would prefer not to. But Again I have the choice.

Most of the cards I ever bought or sold never had a reserve (that I knew of) so it was not as much a factor (but what I do not know I do not know)

[Rhotchkiss]

3 Days left and the Wagner still sits at $1mm with buyer's premium, which is where the card sat after the first day (has not moved since it opened) and is a mere half of the estimate. It ain't over until the until its over, but its starting to look like this Wagner will be a flop.

As a Wagner owner, I would love to see this restored "A" get over $2mm. As a realist, however, I think it tops $1.3mm max.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

3 Days left and the Wagner still sits at $1mm with buyer's premium, which is where the card sat after the first day (has not moved since it opened) and is a mere half of the estimate. It ain't over until the until its over, but its starting to look like this Wagner will be a flop.

As a Wagner owner, I would love to see this restored "A" get over $2mm. As a realist, however, I think it tops $1.3mm max.

The ugly PSA 7 Goudey Ruth has also had zero bids in that time. And I'm not surprised in the least.

[mrreality68]

Regarding the Wagner it may not sell for a lot more.
But with 11 bids in it only needs 2 people to get into a bidding war and the price jumps fast. But I am unsure which way it goes. I am thinking $1.5 million

Regarding the Ruth 7 I agree it is ugly for a 7. And it has not moved much but at its current price new money coming into the bidding may look more at the Grade then at the eye appeal.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Regarding the Wagner it may not sell for a lot more.
But with 11 bids in it only needs 2 people to get into a bidding war and the price jumps fast. But I am unsure which way it goes. I am thinking $1.5 million

Regarding the Ruth 7 I agree it is ugly for a 7. And it has not moved much but at its current price new money coming into the bidding may look more at the Grade then at the eye appeal.

It's ugly for a 1. I think the seller has already done well, even if there are no more bids. This must be a Registry thing, as hard as it is for me to wrap my mind around that. I could buy half a dozen Ruth #144s today that look a lot better than this card for under $30k each. There are plenty out there. I’ll never understand, but I’m ok with that.

[MattyC]

The lot I was in a "bidding war" on also has mysteriously received zero action since I stopped bidding. Seems like the house has had a good portion of the activity here.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The lot I was in a "bidding war" on also has mysteriously received zero action since I stopped bidding. Seems like the house has had a good portion of the activity here.

YIKES

[steve B]

That's how it works bidding against a reserve.

In live auctions I've been to they do occasionally have reserves. And if the bidding stalls close to the reserve they reveal it so someone can bit the reserve amount.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

FWIW, the fact that the major auction houses (e.g., Sothebys, Christies, etc.) across all fields of collecting employ the method of hidden reserves with the house being allowed to secretly bid up to the reserve, suggests to me this method works in achieving the highest prices. That it might piss off some bidders who will therefore not bid is more than offset by the higher prices it generates among those bidders who participate. Conceptually it makes sense it would work, as it reduces the number of bidders required to achieve the desired price from two to one. In regard to the demand curve, for the most desirable items it is very inelastic. Because of that, bidders who really want the item will knowingly choose to take the bait and bid, fearing that, even though unlikely, if there is that "real" second bidder, they will have no chance of buying the item after the auction.

You are undoubtedly correct in all of this, because for most collectors, "stuff trumps everything." I would point out that lots of other morally questionable business practices are also quite successful for the sellers, and from time to time laws are enacted to stop them. Endless discussions here have addressed which cross the line in our hobby and and which don't, with much outrage expressed regarding the former. For me, as I said, any selling strategy that involves keeping bidders in the dark does cross that line. The fact that most AHs employ those strategies and buyers continue to patronize them doesn't change my opinion in the least.

[atx840]

12th bid came in on the Wags.

Current Bid: $919,005

[babraham]

Originally Posted by atx840

12th bid came in on the Wags.

Current Bid: $919,005

Less than a day left now...it's got a ways to go to hit their $2m+ estimate.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by babraham

Less than a day left now...it's got a ways to go to hit their $2m+ estimate.

Agreed the clock is ticking and it will be interesting to see.

Either way I think the seller should be very happy with what he gets

[ullmandds]

$919,000...a reasonable price for such an ugly card.


I'm relieved...I was hypothesizing the easiest way to eat a t206...maybe vitamix it and put it in a smoothie???

[Rhotchkiss]

A very reasonable price indeed, but a complete miss by the AH, who estimated the card at $2mm. In my opinion, the pre-restored card would have sold for (perhaps considerably) more.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Did it actually sell/meet reserve?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Did it actually sell/meet reserve?

Good Point.

WE know it had a reserve on it "that was not met" going into the last day.

Perhaps it was removed.

But it does show as final price with buyers premium as $1,102,806. Which gives the impression that is sold at,

That is a good price for that card as "restored"

[Rhotchkiss]

Agreed Jeff. By the way it’s presented on the site, it appears it was sold (reserve met or eliminated)

The final price was over 2.5x what this restored Wagner sold for in December of 2018 ($420k). Putting things in that context, I think the SCP Wagner did relatively well

[chriskim]

SPC said reserve met at $919k. Final price is $1,102,806.

[JimC]

I know I'm late to this party but house bidding is gross and shouldn't be allowed.

That Wagner has buyer's remorse written all over it. Of course one good flip will cure any case of buyer's remorse . . .

Jim Creamer

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Agreed Jeff. By the way it’s presented on the site, it appears it was sold (reserve met or eliminated)

The final price was over 2.5x what this restored Wagner sold for in December of 2018 ($420k). Putting things in that context, I think the SCP Wagner did relatively well

I don't keep up with Wagners but curious if you think it would have had a similar gain over that time in original condition or done better/worse? What's the lowest recent sale on a beat up Wagner?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

This to me is the classic definition of market value, and I wholeheartedly agree that a realized price reflecting only one bid above a house bid or reserve price is not indicative of true market value. When the realized hammer price is the stated reserve (i.e., the item actually sells), at least in that instance the market has been put on notice what has taken place. That stands in contrast to a bid above a hidden reserve, which, even though stated in the rules as allowed to take place, is more deceptive.

The price that an item sells for in a given auction on a given day is simply that - the price it sells/sold for in that auction. The assumption that this translates to "fair market value" completely ignores the gross inefficiencies in the market place! For it to be a true "fair market value" we would need to be certain that all willing sellers were meeting all willing buyers in the marketplace to properly see supply and demand at work. Our marketplace is not close to efficient. Add to that the fact that all 8's are not created equal and we have a huge mess. That said, I do think there is value in using a selling price be it auction or private (all of which sales are excluded from the publicly available information) as a relevant piece of information in helping to estimate a fair market value. The more data points you have will help get you closer to a more accurate "fair market value"

Onto reserves - as a result of the very same inefficiencies discussed above, auction houses who have a fiduciary duty to their consignors (NOT their bidders) sometimes agree to place reserves on items. Reserves are a double edged sword - bidders frequently shy away from items they see reserves on and don't bid on items they might actually have won if they did - so some houses choose to "hide" them. Consignors of certain items understandably are concerned that their item may not be seen by all potentially interested buyers of an item and sell below "fair market value" so request reserves. I don't see a simple solution where everyone is happy. I do agree it is poor practice for an auction house to be placing bids against legit bidders up to a hidden reserve price.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

The makeup made his nose look bigger. I would take the makeup back to the store and ask for a refund.

Brian

We have the McNall-Gretzky Wagner and the Jumbo Wagner. Will this one be known as the Jimmy Durante Wagner?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

I don't keep up with Wagners but curious if you think it would have had a similar gain over that time in original condition or done better/worse? What's the lowest recent sale on a beat up Wagner?

There has been a small explosion of Wagner sales in the past 1.5 years and the value of the card has gone up a ton. I think the sales price of this restored Wagner vs the one in 2018 (almost 3x) is on par with the relative apperception of all Wagners, regardless of grade.

Regarding the value of this card restored vs it’s original condition, I think it would sell for more in its original condition.

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Agreed Jeff. By the way it’s presented on the site, it appears it was sold (reserve met or eliminated)



The final price was over 2.5x what this restored Wagner sold for in December of 2018 ($420k). Putting things in that context, I think the SCP Wagner did relatively well

Just a guess but I think this (the 2018) restored Wagner would sell for significantly more than the SCP one because the image, especially the face, are still original. The restoration for that one was adding cut off borders and a clean back primarily.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

But it does show as final price with buyers premium as $1,102,806. Which gives the impression that is sold at,

That is a good price for that card as "restored"

Agreed. And $62k for the bleached out '33 Goudey #144 Ruth is just stunning to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by chadeast

Agreed. And $62k for the bleached out '33 Goudey #144 Ruth is just stunning to me.

I thought it was a worse buy than the Wagner. Just an awful looking card. There is no way someone is excited to put that in their collection. Pure registry or investment (LOL)
.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Leon

I thought it was a worse buy than the Wagner. Just an awful looking card. There is no way someone is excited to put that in their collection. Pure registry or investment (LOL)
.

Agreed 100% that Goudey was not to standards and went for way to much

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Leon

I thought it was a worse buy than the Wagner. Just an awful looking card. There is no way someone is excited to put that in their collection. Pure registry or investment (LOL)
.

Much worse buy. Extremely rare vs. relatively common. I'm not sure I've ever seen a more obvious example of buying the holder instead of the card.

[MattyC]

Yes but someone gets to log that sticker into their Registry Set and now say their card and set is “better.” The joke’s on that “winner” because there are 3s and 4s that blow that 7 away. Funny things happen when people let PSA override their eyeballs. Even funnier is that’s a high sticker grade and there are way more than enough sticker collectors aka “investors” out there for the winner to flip it in a few years for a tidy profit.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes but someone gets to log that sticker into their Registry Set and now say their card and set is “better.” The joke’s on that “winner” because there are 3s and 4s that blow that 7 away. Funny things happen when people let PSA override their eyeballs. Even funnier is that’s a high sticker grade and there are way more than enough sticker collectors aka “investors” out there for the winner to flip it in a few years for a tidy profit.

I labeled my SCP picture as Ruth crap LOL....

That 7 cost 3x more than my card and both are recent purchases...makes sense to me

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes but someone gets to log that sticker into their Registry Set and now say their card and set is “better.” The joke’s on that “winner” because there are 3s and 4s that blow that 7 away. Funny things happen when people let PSA override their eyeballs. Even funnier is that’s a high sticker grade and there are way more than enough sticker collectors aka “investors” out there for the winner to flip it in a few years for a tidy profit.

Agree 100% with both bolded points.

My only PSA registry set (and my only experience with the PSA registry) is my 524-card T206 set. I can attest first-hand that registry rankings is a very strong drug and has lead me to buy (hell over pay for) some cards, as "upgrades", purely for the number on flip. In my opinion, the registry is genius for this exact reason (and I do not like to give PSA credit for anything). Because of the registry, some people buy only PSA and they are constantly upgrading to see their name climb the registry leader board.

I also agree that because of the registry, the winner of the 33 Goudey PSA 7 will likely sell it for a profit down the line. Another reason why the registry is so genius -- it allows for some risk mitigation on resale because your potential buyers are not only people who want the card, but also registry collectors. If you pick the right sets -- like T206, 1933 Goudey, 1952 Topps -- there should always be enough people out there putting together registry sets so that the likelihood of selling your over graded card at a profit (or at least break even) is increased, if not almost guaranteed.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Leon

I labeled my SCP picture as Ruth crap LOL....

That 7 cost 3x more than my card and both are recent purchases...makes sense to me

Beautiful upgrade, Leon. And as an added bonus, your Ruth isn't trimmed!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Leon

I labeled my SCP picture as Ruth crap LOL....

That 7 cost 3x more than my card and both are recent purchases...makes sense to me

Great card Leon. I think I even prefer my slim waisted, two piece Ruth over that faded, blurry, suspiciously small 62k Babe.

Brian

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Great card Leon. I think I even prefer my slim waisted, two piece Ruth over that faded, blurry, suspiciously small 62k Babe.

Brian

Actually you can restore yours using the faded Ruth Card

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The price that an item sells for in a given auction on a given day is simply that - the price it sells/sold for in that auction. The assumption that this translates to "fair market value" completely ignores the gross inefficiencies in the market place! For it to be a true "fair market value" we would need to be certain that all willing sellers were meeting all willing buyers in the marketplace to properly see supply and demand at work. Our marketplace is not close to efficient. Add to that the fact that all 8's are not created equal and we have a huge mess. That said, I do think there is value in using a selling price be it auction or private (all of which sales are excluded from the publicly available information) as a relevant piece of information in helping to estimate a fair market value. The more data points you have will help get you closer to a more accurate "fair market value"

Onto reserves - as a result of the very same inefficiencies discussed above, auction houses who have a fiduciary duty to their consignors (NOT their bidders) sometimes agree to place reserves on items. Reserves are a double edged sword - bidders frequently shy away from items they see reserves on and don't bid on items they might actually have won if they did - so some houses choose to "hide" them. Consignors of certain items understandably are concerned that their item may not be seen by all potentially interested buyers of an item and sell below "fair market value" so request reserves. I don't see a simple solution where everyone is happy. I do agree it is poor practice for an auction house to be placing bids against legit bidders up to a hidden reserve price.

Well said.

[Fred]

What if...

Would it be considered a market price manipulation IF:

The Wags card didn't sell (meet the reserve) and the house was bidding on the card to move it towards the reserve and the house didn't disclose the card did not meet the reserve price (therefore did not actually sell)?

[MattyC]

Good Lord that 7 from SCP is really mesmerizing— as someone said it is perhaps the best example of buying the holder in recent memory. I will add my lowly garbage PSA 4 to the list of examples for comparison. The investors out there who only want 7s and up are free to look down their noses at this one... This was actually an SGC 4.5 that I crossed like a moron due to my desire for uniformity in my collection. Should have stayed a 4.5, yet why let the merits of the card get in the way of good ole inter-company politics

[chriskim]

If that Ruth PSA 7 was on Heritage auction, it would have been looked a lot better with the team of photoshop experts they have. Those people can make ceases on the card disappear, in this Ruth case, enhancing the contrast/brightness and coloring should be a piece of cake.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by chriskim

If that Ruth PSA 7 was on Heritage auction, it would have been looked a lot better with the team of photoshop experts they have. Those people can make ceases on the card disappear, in this Ruth case, enhancing the contrast/brightness and coloring should be a piece of cake.

It was in Heritage:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by chriskim

If that Ruth PSA 7 was on Heritage auction, it would have been looked a lot better with the team of photoshop experts they have. Those people can make ceases on the card disappear, in this Ruth case, enhancing the contrast/brightness and coloring should be a piece of cake.

And now I feel the need to once again share my T3 Dahlen that came from Heritage this year as a warning. Heritage listing scan on the left, my scan of the same card after I received it on the right.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

It was in Heritage:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

oh. my bad! I guess that card was really that bad and not even HA could do anything about it. LOL

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Fred

What if...

Would it be considered a market price manipulation IF:

The Wags card didn't sell (meet the reserve) and the house was bidding on the card to move it towards the reserve and the house didn't disclose the card did not meet the reserve price (therefore did not actually sell)?

Yes