Now I know where Coach's Corners crap goes

[Shoeless Moe]

to these local auction houses throughout the US

Look at these - I especially like the Gehrig letter to Ms Lindberg - check out the "M's" in Ms. and Many Thanks. Lou had a funny habit of writing the exact same leter completely different.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170013#

And anone know where I can get a Mathewson and Ruth auto for under $30 each, I hate to spend $50 bucks on these.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170017#

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170014#

[David Atkatz]

On April 21, 1934 (the date this postcard was mailed, in Chicago) the Yankees were playing the Red Sox in Boston. Gehrig went 1 for 2, and walked twice.

And, of course, the postcard was originally written (before the back was cleaned, or pasted over) by a Chicago resident, as the address (which is not in "Lou's hand") only says "City," rather than Chicago.

The handwriting waves all over the card, another giveaway.

[RichardSimon]

And I love those "ground beef" shiny stickers on the front of that GPC.
And these guys are using postmarked postcards or creating their own postmarks to try and give their GPC's some credibility,,, that is not a happy development. I saw two of those yesterday, one Gehrig and one Walter Johnson, just signatures not notes, but they had postmarks and were fake.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

to these local auction houses throughout the US

Look at these - I especially like the Gehrig letter to Ms Lindberg - check out the "M's" in Ms. and Many Thanks. Lou had a funny habit of writing the exact same leter completely different.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170013#

And anone know where I can get a Mathewson and Ruth auto for under $30 each, I hate to spend $50 bucks on these.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170017#

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...&lid=12170014#

Good find Paul,,, I knew this was going on and did mention it in the lengthy CC thread that is running now but this was a good find and shows exactly what I was talking about.

[steve B]

The postmark on this one looks real. It has all the right traits of a typical machine postmark. The points about the date and the "city' address that David made pretty much rule out the back message of course.

The only thing I find impressive about this one is the quality of the erasing job.

Steve B

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And I love those "ground beef" shiny stickers on the front of that GPC.
And these guys are using postmarked postcards or creating their own postmarks to try and give their GPC's some credibility,,, that is not a happy development. I saw two of those yesterday, one Gehrig and one Walter Johnson, just signatures not notes, but they had postmarks and were fake.

[David Atkatz]

And, for good measure, the salutation "Ms." ("Mizz") originated in the 1960s.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by steve B

The postmark on this one looks real. It has all the right traits of a typical machine postmark. The points about the date and the "city' address that David made pretty much rule out the back message of course.

The only thing I find impressive about this one is the quality of the erasing job.

Steve B

So, what is the opinion of the board on these fake gpcs? Are they faking the postmarks or removing the original ink?

I love me some gpcs and now clearly need to know how to decipher good from bad if at all possible(outside of the signature). How can I determine if a postmark is good? HELP!

[David Atkatz]

The front of this PC is completely genuine.

[RichardSimon]

Where there is a will there is a way.
If there is a crooked way for forgers to sell autographs then somone will figure out a way to do it.
In this same vein, I saw a Babe Ruth Foundation check on ebay a couple of years ago. The check was blank and the check number was clearly visible. I immediately thought this could be trouble.
It did sell.
A month later the same check showed up again on ebay. Guess what? It was now filled in and signed with a skilled hand.
I did report it to one of my contacts in LE but one forged item unfortunately won't have much of an impact with LE.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

So, what is the opinion of the board on these fake gpcs? Are they faking the postmarks or removing the original ink?

I would think that it is possible that "they" might be doing both though in this instance it appears that they removed the original writing.
The original forger in the hobby, Ron Dross (don't RIP Ron) had forged signatures on blank unpostmarked GPC's so they could be clearly spotted. But these guys are getting smarter.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here it is.

AMA-2.jpg

AMA-3.jpg

AMA-4.jpg

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Here it is.

Attachment 53423

Attachment 53424

Attachment 53425

Thanks for putting this up here Truth!

David, How can you tell? Is there something you look at by the stamp in particular that is a dead give away or just years of handling?

Richard, unfortunately there are lots of wills…I trust very few people in this hobby. This is pretty damn good considering..; a couple more steps taken.
It is just too erratic to fool us.... BUT THEY WOULD HAVE FOOLED SOMEONE.

They combined the content of the two examples below....CROOKS!



The damndest thing is... these idiots would do better on ebay selling it with no cert. They went through all this trouble and will only get $120 for it rather than $113.

PS: They ALMOST nailed one letter in "K" ..well.... "KIND" of.

[David Atkatz]

I have seen the original note this PC was copied from. Other than the salutation, it's a word-for-word copy.

[RichardSimon]

The postcard sold for $475. If legit it certainly would bring a nice four figure sum.
My question is,,, who bought it and where will he try to sell it next?
It is like musical chairs with these items now, the last one left holding the item will be the loser.
I know that other hobbies have their horror stories too, but it seems to me that the sports memorabilia hobby is the worst of them all.
Why is that?

[David Atkatz]

Sports is hardly the worst.
Museums and collectors have purchased art forgeries for millions of dollars.

[ctownboy]

A Babe Ruth autographed baseball, "authenticated" by the same company sold in this auction (Kraft Auction) for $4,200 dollars.

David

[steve B]

My theory -And I know I'll probably take some heat for it- Is that the traditions and culture of sports memorabilia collecting make the faking much easier.

In stamps there has been a lot of record keeping regarding the tiniest detail since sometime in the 1840's (1840 was the "first" postage stamp) Fakes made to fool collectors began to appear probably around the 1850's And there have been detailed descriptions of the assorted fakes and info about who made them for nearly as long.
And the fakers have often been bought out with their stock and equipment being retained by a national stamp collectors organization.

Coins have been faked for a very long time, but the enforcement has often come from governments.

In both hobbies the national collectors organizations have been pretty strong, and being kicked out for faking or shady dealings was usually a career ender for a dealer. Doing what's considered "right" was business as usual. (Very victorian era attitude, those outed as frauds were priahs and ruined men in the eyes of those in the hobby) The guy I hung out at took a return on a coin he'd sold something like 10 years before that turned out to be altered. The only question asked when the coin was shown to him was howmuch it had been bought for as he didn't recall. - NO certificate, no reciept, just a memory of having owned that coing and having sold it.

Not that there haven't been bad apples, ther have of course been plenty of them.

With Sports memorabilia there hasn't been the constant build up of detailed knowledge. In stamps I can look up if a stamp was typographed engraved or lithographed. I can't do that with most sports collectibles. Many collectors have an attitude of open rebellion against the very concept. Granted the people doing grading /authenticating are often just as blind as the collectors, but that's what most collectors want, someone else to have knowledge and make a clear determination of wether something is real.

Yes, there's a concern that the fakers will learn enough to make it hard to determine if something is fake, but the technical skills have literally been out there since the 1800's. Knowing what may have been done to something lets you know what to look for to be sure it hasn't been done.

In stamps, the certs will tell you what it IS if one is issued. If I send a stamp in as a US #500 and it's not they'll issue a cert stating that it's actually a different one. The ones where they declare "we decline to render an opinion" are the fun ones. That means the people who should be experts have looked at it and can't figure it out with confidence. That's either REALLY good or very bad. And it may take years of research to figure out which.

I can't think of many sports collectors who would accept that.
Amd maybe rightly so, so much of this stuff is really a gray area. The technical knowledge either isn't there or is too closely held.

Until things change so that a faker is essentially out of the business when found out and the average hobbyist wants knowledge instead of a "bargain" the fakers and frauds will have an easy time of it.

Steve B

[steve B]

The cancel was made with a machine similar to this one.http://catalogue.postalheritage.org....0machine%27%29

The one shown is a Krag, while the one on the GPC is probably an international. The operation is essentially the same. There's a spining ink pad, that inks a spinning steel die. The wheels at the right push the cards or leters into the space between the spinning die and a rubber roller. The die grabs it and prints the cancel as the mail is pushed through to the other side.

The tips of the wavy lines hit first, the circular part with the town last. A nice solid cancel will indent the paper a bit. The mail often slips slightly, and the die is very well inked. The sloppy bit at the right side of the circular part is a bit slip a bit sloppy ink, and darn hard to fake unless you make a machine.
The number to the left of the circle is the machine number. A small town might have one machine, Chicago had a whole roomfull. If I was going to the trouble of faking a cancel it would NOT be a Chicago machine cancel......Not when a card like this can often be had for pennies with a perectly good cancel already on it. (Plus the postal inspectors dislike cancel faking nearly as much as stamp faking, and there's no statute of limitations)

Steve B

[mabjae]

never mind

[travrosty]

many of these most popular companies authenticate using the super burger fast food concept of authenticating. you bring in your item to a show, someone wholly unqualified to look at it looks at it, issues a cert for a bogus item, spelling the name of the athlete wrong in the process, and it is all suppose to be good?

they adopted the certification system that fit their pocketbooks the best, not the one that serves the customer the best. art authenticators dont set up at an art show and promise a two hour turnaround on your salvador dali or picasso. If they did and called a Picasso a Picolo or a Dali a Danby, all hell would break loose, but authenticators can call a james jefferies a james Jeffers, or the can say that a bat was used by thurman munson, and his teammate sandy alomar jr. (should have been sr. obviously), and no one seems to care and they just go on to the next authentication.

some customers aren't interested in finding out if their piece is real, they just want the cert. to them the cert means its real. but of course a cert cant make a bad piece real, it just lets you sell it to the next guy under those auspices.

It has been 'deemed authentic'. (phrase that should be banned from our lexicon).

[mighty bombjack]

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

[scmavl]

Looks like ol' Cap can't write his name near as well he can write an address.

[steve B]

That cancel was in use fairly early. This example is 1839.

http://www.philamercury.com/covers.php?id=9587

By 1851-57 they were using a different one, and stamps.

http://www.theclassiccancel.com/n5091.jpg

Pretty easy one. Since Anson was born in 1852 It's very unlikely he'd have written his name on someone elses correspondence.
Maybe I should set up as an authenticator? It looks really easy

Steve B

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

[Exhibitman]

Sigh...

[steve B]

Saddest part for me is that they wrecked a very nice example of an inexpensive stampless cover.

Sadder for anyone that pays the $3k for a writen on $20 cover.

Steve B

[mighty bombjack]

It's an emerging trend. Someone has been very busy signing old postcards and envelopes. Here's a Cobb with ACE COA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ty-Cobb-Auto...76840168574664

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here it is.


jrod1.jpg

jrod2.jpg

jrod3.jpg

From the same seller. Also ACE (Justin Priddy) certed.

jrod4.jpg

jrod5.jpg

[Mr. Zipper]

Is there any over/under on how long before ACE/Priddy joins the ranks of the eBay banned along with STAT, Morales, Frangipani, et al.?

I don't know what is taking so long with Global Authentic/Steve Sipe. Must be some behind the scenes wrangling going on there.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

It's an emerging trend. Someone has been very busy signing old postcards and envelopes. Here's a Cobb with ACE COA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ty-Cobb-Auto...76840168574664

So what's the going rate for a fake Cobb, Ruth and McGraw?

[Shoeless Moe]

Sold in that Indiana auction for $350 over the weekend, that seller on Ebay sold it Sunday b4 having it in hand for $2500.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetai...70012#topoflot


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Christy-Math...item27c22af533

WOW!!!!!!!

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Is there any over/under on how long before ACE/Priddy joins the ranks of the eBay banned along with STAT, Morales, Frangipani, et al.?

I don't know what is taking so long with Global Authentic/Steve Sipe. Must be some behind the scenes wrangling going on there.

Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts...ask=view&id=12

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts...ask=view&id=12

Apparently, the ACE expert "team" consists of Justin Priddy and Brent Niederman who is a consultant who only authenticates Joe Mauer autographs.

#######

Brent Niederman - Consultant Authenticator

From Hamel, MN Brent has specialized in all apects of collecting Joe mauer and Hall of Fame autographed rookie cards. He has amassed a collection of over 400 Mauer rookie cards and over over 150 autographed cards that were signed in his presence or previously certified. Additionally he has acquired over 75 Hall of Fame autographed rookie cards, highlighted by a 1909-11 T206 Rube marquard and 1933 Goudey Mickey Cochrane.

Falling in love with the sporting world at an early age, Brent played baseball all the way through college until recurring injuries forced him to leave the game and continue as a assistant coach for the team his senior year. He attended Bethel University in St. Paul, MN with a degree in Sports Management graduating in May 2009. Currently Brent is pursuing a law degree applying to different law schools around the state to further his education in that field.

Brent first started collecting Mauer at age 14 when the Minnesota Twins drafted Joe in 2001. He has attended various signing events like Twins Fest that is held twice a year to obtain Joe’s autograph as well as at the Metrodome. He has carried on this passion for over nine years and has become well versed with Joe’s signature and its variations as to the style and how it has changed over the years.

Brent is a welcome addition to the ACE staff of experts specializing in Joe Mauer autographs. He is very experienced and knowledgeable in collecting Joe’s autographs in person and has familiarized himself with the evolving strokes, pen pressure, and consistencies of Joe’s signature. Based on the style of signature Brent can typically set a timeframe in which an item was signed. His knowledge of Mauer’s signature is unparalleled within the hobby.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by sylbry

Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts...ask=view&id=12

Hell, I am more concerned with the present of ACE than their future.
If they keep this up, maybe they will be looking for files in a cake.

[mighty bombjack]

The seller of the aforementioned Cobb has taken it down, along with the McGraw and Ruth autos he had listed with ACE certs. This was not ebay removing them, but the seller doing so because "the item is no longer available." I wonder if he sold them offline or if something else went down.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

The seller of the aforementioned Cobb has taken it down, along with the McGraw and Ruth autos he had listed with ACE certs. This was not ebay removing them, but the seller doing so because "the item is no longer available." I wonder if he sold them offline or if something else went down.

Yes, the seller canceled those three auctions. I have a feeling he received quite a few emails about those auctions.

[Shoeless Moe]

and the seller took them down because he was told that ACE is not reliable (putting it nicely).

The seller said they were going to investigate them further, so good chance they'll re-emerge.

Now how do we go about getting ACE on the banned EBAY list if they are not currently. Because I suspect we are going to be seeing more garbage by them.

Can we tell EBAY that Christy Mathewson authenticated by them went for a whopping $300 bucks in an auction. That should be enough right? I know how you report an item, but how do you report a bad authenticator?

[GrayGhost]

An expert in Joe Mauer autographs? LOL. I don't know if this whole autograph collecting segment is worth it. Glad I don't have the means to collect it. Its sad, funny, awful and crazy all at once.

Honestly, no joking. HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL BOUT AUTHENTICITY ANYMORE? Its just nuts.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

An expert in Joe Mauer autographs? LOL. I don't know if this whole autograph collecting segment is worth it. Glad I don't have the means to collect it. Its sad, funny, awful and crazy all at once.

Honestly, no joking. HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL BOUT AUTHENTICITY ANYMORE? Its just nuts.

At least someone at ACE is an expert in something. Might be beneficial for Mr. Niederman to cut ties with ACE. They are quickly becoming a hobby villian among the likes of Coaches Corner, Lou Lampson, Chris Morales, ect...

[travrosty]

There is no reporting authenticators. If there was then abc and xyz would be in a different line of work. how many basic screwups does there need to be? Evidently it's unlimited.

[Fuddjcal]

and why we're at it Travis, lest us not forget the one of the true blue scammers of the "rubber stamper" scammers brigade, Mr Christopher MoralASS, Forensic Cheater F'er. Ace is not the place for the helpful Autograph man.

And I thought It was bad being the lowly Mantle collector....Imagine what it would be like to be a Pathetic Joe Mauer expert!!!!!

How about "almost" 1 good year and a cloud of dust. Talk about an overrated piece of dung! He might get that career HR total up to 50 before it's all said and done. That's if the stinkin bum can actually stay on the field for a season.

Fudd is Now an expert in Felix Millan and Stan Javier....Send all your Felix Millan's to me for authentication and you'll get a free Jullian Javier. I'll throw in a Manny Sanguillen, which I am also an expert if you act now.....

They must just be lining up around the block with the Fake Mauers...LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Haven't had a belly laugh in regards to Autographs in along time.

The state of affairs are just so gross, look for Fudd to Unload his entire collection this year, just so I don't have to follow this sorry B>S anymore.

I have to go take a growler now, because that's what this hobby is.... a big ice cream soft serve pile of dog cr**.

[slidekellyslide]

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

Good idea but will he show up here? I have doubts.

[travrosty]

no one has forgotten, but its forgettable, because its not the big problem.

when the times comes, only one thing will shake the autograph collecting hobby to the core, and it won't have anything to do with an fde.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Good idea but will he show up here? I have doubts.

Oh, I know he's too chickensh*t to show up here and post...I just want to make sure that he has a link to the thread so he knows we're on to his scam.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

no one has forgotten, but its forgettable, because its not the big problem.

when the times comes, only one thing will shake the autograph collecting hobby to the core, and it won't have anything to do with an fde.

Travis, are you saying that the thousands of Muhammad Ali forgeries that Chris Morales has certed, hasn't had a negative impact on the hobby?

[David Atkatz]

Whadda you care how much crap Morales certifies? No "real collector" buys his stuff. (A very reliable YouTube source told me that.)

Whoever forged those high-end Ruth balls has done "the hobby" serious--perhaps irreparable--harm. Morales and his fellow clowns are a joke.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Whadda you care how much crap Morales certifies? No "real collector" buys his stuff. (A very reliable YouTube source told me that.)

Whoever forged those high-end Ruth balls has done "the hobby" serious--perhaps irreparable--harm. Morales and his fellow clowns are a joke.

What "I care about" and "Why I care about it" is none of your business, Mr. Atkatz.

[GrayGhost]

Not this stuff again. ...

Look, you two are both VERY passionate bout the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Not this stuff again. ...

Look, you two are both VERY passionate bout the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

You make a good point, Scott, but Mr. Atkatz has been "baiting" me for awhile now, and for once I took the "bait," but I won't apologize for taking the "bait."

[RichardSimon]

Years ago the young man who forged, among other things, high end team balls (I had a 1920's NY Giants team ball in my hands, offered to me by a conspiraor of the forger, it was a complete forgery with 20+ autographs) did the hobby serious harm and yet here we are years later and the hobby still thrives, albeit an economic slowdown in this country has had an effect.
I have a suspicion, totally unproven, that this person might have had a hand in the high end Ruth baseballs we are seeing now.
Charlie Sheen was taken in years ago, big time spenders were taken in, and yet collectors continue to buy and buy and buy.