True Mint by Rosen

[samosa4u]

Many people credit Al "Mr. Mint" Rosen for making the hobby what it is today. He was making a name for himself in the 1980s, the decade I was born, and nor did he hang around up here in Canada, and so I never met him. However, I have read all the amazing stories on here (thanks to all you old-timers) and one of you did recommend that I read TRUE MINT. Here is a picture of it below:



I finished reading it last night and I was trying to figure out how to discuss it on here with yawl (I learned that word from Leon!) Now, instead of writing an essay, which would put most people to sleep, I decided to do something different here. In this thread, I will just take a few quotes from this book that stood out to me and post them on here. I will add some of my own notes at the bottom, and of course, if there is anybody who wants to discuss a certain topic in more detail, then post away!

Before I start, please remember that this book was published in 1994.

- It [third-party grading] ruined the coin business and it will ruin the card business.

- Produce a 1954 Aaron rookie graded a nine or a ten and people will go berserk. The price is thousands, but if you've got a near-mint to mint one, it's $1,200. It is such a growing spread that it doesn't make sense.

- Most people in this business grade wrong. What does it mean, "mint?" It means new as manufactured. Maybe it is off-center, and maybe there are print lines, but it is still mint.

- People say that a severely off-center card can be graded no better than excellent. Nonsense. If you were blindfolded and I told you that I had in my hand an excellent 1952 Topps Mantle card, what would you envision? You might see slightly fuzzy corners, borders not pure white, perhaps a card that displayed a bit of honest wear. What you would not imagine is a GEM MINT, full gloss card with white borders and 80-20 centering.

- At an auction, I had a Jordan rookie that I described as GEM MINT, unimprovable, side to side, top to bottom. It was returned by the customer saying that the centering was 51-49! Now, this is a sickness.

- Trimming is one of the things that has been going on for a long time.

- In recent years, a lot of guys were bleaching the Goudeys and Cracker Jacks. I looked at some cards on dealers' tables and the Cracker Jacks were whiter than my new underwear.

- I had one Mantle [1952 Topps] left, the best one. I had it on my desk. We had taken all the money from the find and we wanted to remodel our home which we had bought a year earlier. There was a guy actually working on my bathroom one day when the phone rang. It was a California collector, and he wanted to know if I had any Mantles left with the seams on the baseball facing right (it was a double printed card). Sure enough, the seams faced right. He offered me $4,000 for it, and that was more than I had ever gotten for a Mantle. So I asked my wife if I should sell it. She said no, you've always wanted a Mantle, but meanwhile the guy is banging away in my bathroom, charging me thousands of dollars. I decided to sell it. Ultimately, that collector sold the card himself, and it finally would up in the hands of Jim Copeland. When his collection went up for auction at Sotheby's, I ended up being a losing bidder at $41,000 on the same card that I had sold for $4,000 two years before.

My notes:

I found it interesting that a lot of things Rosen mentioned in this book are still being discussed today - 27 years later. It's also crazy that people were trimming and bleaching cards way before they became insanely expensive. And finally, I think Rosen's biggest problem was he couldn't hold on to a damn thing for even a week! ! It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

At an auction, I had a Jordan rookie that I described as GEM MINT, unimprovable, side to side, top to bottom. It was returned by the customer saying that the centering was 51-49! Now, this is a sickness.


- Al Rosen

That's messed up, on several levels.

[vthobby]

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

[bobbyw8469]

I own this book. Great read.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I knew one of the guys in his circle to whom Alan was regularly flipping deals. Got spoiled picking up NM to MT pristine cards at Beckett prices.

[tulsaboy]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I finished reading it last night and I was trying to figure out how to discuss it on here with yawl (I learned that word from Leon!)

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

I prefer youse.

[tulsaboy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I prefer youse.

OK, fair enough. We'll agree to adopt different spellings to reflect regional dialects.

kevin

[bigtrain]

Alan was in the hobby as a business. While he enjoyed holding on to some things for a short time, he often said that the only
thing he collected was $100 bills.

[rjackson44]

I would sit at his auctions in montvale nj he was a character i guess no one is perfect

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

OK, fair enough. We'll agree to adopt different spellings to reflect regional dialects.

kevin

Y'all at least has a charm to it. Youse just sounds moronic, even worse than most of that Jersey tough guy talk. Bleep youse both.

[Bpm0014]

In Pittsburgh people say ‘yinz’. Terrible...

[drcy]

I read the book more than two decades ago and enjoyed it. An entertaining read.

I found his grading philosophy interesting: Mint = pack fresh, and a pack fresh card can be off centered.

His job was businessman making a regular salary, and his job was to sell would he bought for a profit asap. He wasn't an investor, and remember that you don't know if the cards will go up or down in value.

[jcmtiger]

When he setup at Plymouth Mi show I was setting up at same show. He always paid extra for his table to be right at entrance to the show. That’s how he was able to buy walk ins 1st. Very arrogent, did not keep things very long. I, myself don’t credit him for “making the hobby for what it is today” Many other true collectors & dealers did that.

[nat]

"the hobby what it is today"

...are we so sure this is a good thing?

[Tere1071]

Alan Rosen was a very large fish in a very small pond.

[maniac_73]

Ok Now I actually want to read the book

[ALBB]

I think he helped the hobby grow

[theuclakid]

yea he was a character....willow grove mid 1980's...I had bought a 1955 Clemente Rookie from him he had graded EX (long before grading companies) and priced it as such...when I got back to my room, I noticed a noticeable crease on the back...at breakfast the next morning I showed him, his only response was I grade the fronts, not the backs....to his credit I got a refund....and..the 1987 National in SF...I was very busy setting up and he was walking around trying to buy..he asked to see my cards, but I politely said please come back in a few minutes after I finished setting up and getting organized...he screamed at me verbally for several minutes...but eventually walked away....as I said he was a character...later on though at Nationals, he would say hello...so he probably forgot those two encounters...Bruce Perry

[BabyRuth]

July 4, 1988 Issue of Sports Illustrated - I read the article and it got me back into the hobby back in '88 - I had the forethought to have the Mint Man sign it at one of the Boston Shriner's shows. Probably not too many of these that are signed floating around.

[Jay Wolt]

Didn't he have bobble heads of himself produced?
I know he had photo's that he signed.
Saw him at a few National's & the Ft. Washington shows

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by nat

"the hobby what it is today"

...are we so sure this is a good thing?

Ha!!! Ha !!! For sure

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Didn't he have bobble heads of himself produced?
I know he had photo's that he signed.
Saw him at a few National's & the Ft. Washington shows

Yes, bobble heads.

[Hankphenom]

Honestly, I don't think the hobby would have been worse off if "Mr. Mint" had never been a part of it, had taken his act to coins or lunch boxes or some other commodity he could exploit collectors' passion for. Apparently, he could have cared less about any of it. With his briefcases full of Benjamins in every photo and interview, he undoubtedly did a lot to clue the country in on the demand for what many of them had thought was worthless ephemera, for good and for bad: more stuff coming out of attics and closets, but at higher prices. For decades, I had to look at his greedy countenance and sweating bald head first thing after walking into every major show I went to. He was never looking at the people, just what they were carrying, calling out to draw them over to his table so he could show off how fast he could peel 100s onto the table. I don't know whether he was fair as a buyer or not, but I'd guess he would have paid a penny on the dollar if he could get away with it, but hopefully was smart enough to pay well in a rising market and grab his chunk of a quick flip. I had one unfortunate personal experience, offering him a pair of HOF press pins at a fair price when those were hot. Without a word, he pushed them back across the table and turned his chair away from me. I vowed never to talk to him again, and never did. And the next dealer I offered the pins to gave me my price, didn't even quibble. I never understood how his assistants at those shows, first Steve "Exhibit Man" Reeves (whatever happened to him?), then Dave Szuba, who were friends of mine and nice guys, could stand being around him so much. They would smile and tell me about the cool deals they got to witness, and that he would throw them a bone every once in a while, let them take a deal too small for him to bother with. I didn't envy them, but did admire their intestinal fortitude.

[rjackson44]

And when he went to the robots phase omg ,,im buying robots oh well

[marzoumanian]

I'm the old timer who recommended you read "True Mint," Mr. Samosa4U. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Lots of great stories. As others have said in this thread, understand that Rosen cared about cards BUT only if they were as close to GEM MINT as possible. Because he knew that he could then make easy money selling them. So in that sense he was all about the Benjamins. But there's no denying that the SI piece from 1988 on him was a huge boost for the hobby.
On May 22, 2016 I interviewed Rosen for a book I'm working on about Mastro Auctions. I just pulled out the transcript. Here's what he said about money:
"Money means a lot to me. But money doesn't mean you have to be a pig. My thing was hogs eat, pigs go to slaughter. And I never was dishonest to anyone, anyone. And I preach that to my children, honesty is the best policy." Rosen died in January 2017.
I once asked him at one of the old Chicago Sun-Times shows in Rosemont, Ill., when he would be writing his next book. He told me that a publisher wanted him to write a book about his dealings with MLB players and celebs. But he had no interest. He then told me some off-the-record stories about how some of the players he dealt with could be pretty nasty to the public and how it shocked him. Yes, Rosen was a character, as others have already made clear.

[bmattioli]

I usually read this book when I get so bored in the Winter months after the Super Bowl prior the the start of Baseball.. So 80's memories..

[mightyq]

you know they say if you have nothing nice to say keep mouth shut!! i will do that.......got me on the wrong day wrong time on one of his phone calls yelling and screaming.....that was the last time i ever spoke with the man, mind you i would spend 5 figures in each auction of the last 6 of his auctions, this was 2001, when i and he cut ties. i am sure you have no interest in the story. so like i said, i will zip it...

[Keith H. Thompson]

Alan would always be set up just inside the entrance to the show floor on the lookout for anyone carrying a briefcase or any sign of anyone with anything to sell. And woe betide anyone innocent enough to interfere. I always carried an empty briefcase and was permitted admission, but if he were not busy he would ask you again on the way out.
I remember one incident when Ken Savage asked a customer (at Ken's own table) if he had anything to sell. Alan overheard, went to Ken's table and confronted him in a voice loud enough to be heard anywhere in the room -- that "buying was his right" for which he paid extra. Arrogant and overbearing are not strong enough adjectives to describe his behavior.
I often found items at his table beneath his notice for sale at very reasonable prices, and he was courteous and affable.
I miss him.

[drcy]

I am keenly aware of his reputation and demeanor . . . . However, his book is still an entertaining and interesting read.

[mechanicalman]

Dude sounds like a dick.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

I used to set up at Gloria Rothstein’s show in White Plains, NY in the mid 90’s and my “booth” (more like a small spot on a long table) one year was right next to Rosen’s. The show was slow and he had a lot of cash left at the end… so he bought my Rose PC of Cobb, Novelty Cutlery of Cobb, PC796 Cobb, and a few other cards I had. NONE of them were professionally graded & NONE of them were anywhere near mint. More like GD-VG range. I saw them in one of his auctions shortly after.

He also used to sell a “magic stain remover” and claimed it would remove any/all stains from cards…

[rhettyeakley]

Pretty much the biggest d*** I have ever dealt with. I get along with almost everybody but I just couldn't stomach that guy.

I know many here liked the guy but I was not among them, I honestly just don't understand why the other dealers put up with his shenanigans.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by mightyq

you know they say if you have nothing nice to say keep mouth shut!! i will do that.......got me on the wrong day wrong time on one of his phone calls yelling and screaming.....that was the last time i ever spoke with the man, mind you i would spend 5 figures in each auction of the last 6 of his auctions, this was 2001, when i and he cut ties. i am sure you have no interest in the story. so like i said, i will zip it...

Those are the stories I want to hear lol

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

In Pittsburgh people say ‘yinz’. Terrible...

In Ireland, it's "yous," which make sense. It is the plural of you!

[parkplace33]

I heard he was not a popular person among dealers.

[Rich Klein]

"I found it interesting that a lot of things Rosen mentioned in this book are still being discussed today - 27 years later. It's also crazy that people were trimming and bleaching cards way before they became insanely expensive. And finally, I think Rosen's biggest problem was he couldn't hold on to a damn thing for even a week! ! It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Al transitioned to cards from being a coin dealer where "flipping" was/is commonplace.

I also disagree with how it hurt him in the long run because he bought/sold cards and had a cadre of people to sell to, especially in the 1980's. Not everyone wants to be a retailer, some are happy to just move items. Other things did affect his long-term business but that was not one of the reasons.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Dude sounds like a dick.

You got it. He was clever enough to carve out a colorful and profitable niche in the hobby, but I never understood why he couldn't have done it the same way but without being such a jerk, which he must have known would certainly cost him some business. Some people seem to revel in being able to get away with being obnoxious, like their egos feed on that, but what a sad way to be. I'm guessing he had a rough childhood where the only attention he got was from being bad, and now I find myself feeling sorry for the guy! He's gone now, though, and the fewer dicks there are in the hobby, the better.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

It is always easy to look back at the cards that grew 500 percent and wish you had kept them. But don't forget all the Eric Davis type rookie cards that were sold for $25 each back in the day that are worth .85 cents now.

Plus if those profits back then were used for Real Estate purchases or Stock purchases, then you may have realized the same gains anyway....and don't have the losses you would have by keeping all the stuff that went down in value like the Eric Davis rookies.

PS if that is how you were paying the bills by flipping and dealing cards, then keeping them isn't really much of an option anyway.

[ocjack]

The night before one of the Anaheim Nationals, I was out having dinner with my wife. A few tables over was Mr. Mint having dinner with Tony Galovich. Would have loved to have been a fly on the proverbial wall (or in the soup as the case may have been).

Another time, I was sharing a table at the '87 National. My friend had arranged for one of his contacts to bring him a Zeenut Dimaggio (with coupon) to purchase. Once the transaction was completed, he walked over to Mr. Mint's table and told him that he had just purchased some baseball books and this DiMaggio was tucked in the pages. Mr. Mint asked him how much he wanted for it. My friend said he was going to keep. Mr. Mint again asked and started pulling out his briefcase. My friend again stated he was going to keep the card but just wanted to show it to him. At that point, Mr. Mint went ballistic. He yelled at my friend, called him various names and told him to never bring him a card that wasn't for sale and to stay away from his table for the rest of the show. MY friend just laughed and walked away. To be honest, it was a little scary seeing how red a face can become in such a short time. lol

[Yoda]

IMO Alan was a wholesaler and lived by the code: flip or die.

But I believe his Mass find of '52 Topps high numbers may have been the greatest find ever. And the Tenn one wasn't too shabby either.....except for the silverfish.

[Ricky]

Back in the 80s Rosen used to set up every year at the Cranston show. He’d also appear on local talk radio talking about The hobby when he was in town.

[Schlesinj]

A 52 Mantle Rosen is selling tonight on Memory Lane. Currently $810k PSA 8.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

A 52 Mantle Rosen is selling tonight on Memory Lane. Currently $810k PSA 8.

Wow! Strong numbers across the board, 2.3 mil on the Goudey Ruth. Congrats to the Newman family and Memory Lane.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Your line:
"It was always sell, sell, sell! This hurt him really bad in the long-run."

Certainly a true sentiment value wise. Yes he was hurt financially BUT he obviously thrived and it was in his blood so I really feel he was not hurt by all the selling quickly. He made money most likely on 90% of his deals (estimate) because he literally flipped everything he had quickly!

Could his family had millions of dollars of cards if he had held on to some things? Yes! But it was not his style and I'm sure his family did fine in the long run.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the great "Cliffs Notes" version! Enjoyed it!

Peace, Mike

He did mention in his book that he made about six million back in 1990. I'm not sure if this was six mill in sales or in profits, but yeah, this was crazy money either way. However, I think he had like fifty near mint high number sets from his find. He should have saved a few!

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Alan was in the hobby as a business. While he enjoyed holding on to some things for a short time, he often said that the only
thing he collected was $100 bills.

Haha!!

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

When he setup at Plymouth Mi show I was setting up at same show. He always paid extra for his table to be right at entrance to the show. That’s how he was able to buy walk ins 1st. Very arrogent, did not keep things very long. I, myself don’t credit him for “making the hobby for what it is today” Many other true collectors & dealers did that.

Like who?

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

I'm the old timer who recommended you read "True Mint," Mr. Samosa4U. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Lots of great stories. As others have said in this thread, understand that Rosen cared about cards BUT only if they were as close to GEM MINT as possible. Because he knew that he could then make easy money selling them. So in that sense he was all about the Benjamins. But there's no denying that the SI piece from 1988 on him was a huge boost for the hobby.
On May 22, 2016 I interviewed Rosen for a book I'm working on about Mastro Auctions. I just pulled out the transcript. Here's what he said about money:
"Money means a lot to me. But money doesn't mean you have to be a pig. My thing was hogs eat, pigs go to slaughter. And I never was dishonest to anyone, anyone. And I preach that to my children, honesty is the best policy." Rosen died in January 2017.
I once asked him at one of the old Chicago Sun-Times shows in Rosemont, Ill., when he would be writing his next book. He told me that a publisher wanted him to write a book about his dealings with MLB players and celebs. But he had no interest. He then told me some off-the-record stories about how some of the players he dealt with could be pretty nasty to the public and how it shocked him. Yes, Rosen was a character, as others have already made clear.

lol! Yes, it was you! Hello! I did read a few articles on your website, especially the one on Rosen, and they were awesome! Let me know once your book is done cause' I wanna' buy it.

Originally Posted by mightyq

you know they say if you have nothing nice to say keep mouth shut!! i will do that.......got me on the wrong day wrong time on one of his phone calls yelling and screaming.....that was the last time i ever spoke with the man, mind you i would spend 5 figures in each auction of the last 6 of his auctions, this was 2001, when i and he cut ties. i am sure you have no interest in the story. so like i said, i will zip it...

I do have interest in the story. Tell me what happened.

By the way, I do find it interesting how a lot of you on this forum once got screamed at by him. It doesn't sound normal to me. I'm no doctor, but it sounds like he could have been suffering from some kind of mental disorder. Bipolar?

Originally Posted by Yoda

IMO Alan was a wholesaler and lived by the code: flip or die.

But I believe his Mass find of '52 Topps high numbers may have been the greatest find ever. And the Tenn one wasn't too shabby either.....except for the silverfish.

Yeah, that story was horrible! Freaking silverfish!

[arcadekrazy]

Silverfish? Do tell. Was the find infested with them?

[Misunderestimated]

In my mind the "Hobby" and the "business" of card collecting are not same thing -- they're adjacent. While I find it clear that Rosen was good for the business. I'm not so certain about the hobby.

[Rich Klein]

Personally, Al never screamed or was anything less than professional to me. So on that level I don't have those memories. On those rare occasions we had to do something it was always fine and he was always a pleasure to work with. I actually drove him home one year when we flew back from whatever NSCC it was when his driver did not arrive. I was younger and what's 20 minutes to do someone who may be stuck at the airport at 1 AM a favor.

But, and this shows how important of a presence he is, the biggest discussions that pop up on my FB page and frankly the most likes I've ever received from a Klein's Korner column involved discussions of Al Rosen. To me, that shows his amazing influence on the hobby.

[glynparson]

In my opinion he was an Awful grader., Terrible at determining alterations,and a huckster of the highest order. I think he was an asshole and did not make the hobby despite him constantly telling people he did. He was a dinosaur in the business as early as 1990. He made money sire but a lot of the guys he flipped the cards to made more than he did. His business acumen and card knowledge are both greatly exaggerated. If you caught him on the right day he could be charming but more often than not he was just a conceited jerk. I hope he found peace because he seemed to always be in the eye of the storm here on earth usually by situations he himself created. Frankly I don’t think it's a coincidence the hobby grew even larger financially after he basically left it.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

Just a minor correction, as a boy who grew up with this word in daily conversation...we tend to properly spell it here (even in court transcripts) as "y'all."



kevin

And the plural of Yall is "All Yall"