Jackie Robinson Auto - 1st East-West MLK Baseball Classic

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Posted By: Paul S

What they are: From my childhood baseball scrapbook. Autograph and ticket stub. At Dodger Stadium I attended what was called the Martin Luther King 1st East West Classic. I find very little info on this on the Internet. It was an assemblage of black, brown and white baseball all-stars playing a game with a large % of the proceeds going to African-American causes. Certainly the greatest grouping of players I have ever witnessed in one place. Many of them were at the end of their careers and would not have made a regular all-star team at that point.

Your advice: I've never sent memorabilia in before for authentication etc. I'd like to get the autograph, stub and program (soon as I locate it, which is imminent) in one group, framed maybe, with DNA, COA, LOA, whatever the heck OA I need. Certainly I'm not about to attempt to peel that autograph off, but will cut around it with the paper backing. The ticket stub I'm confident that I can remove the staples safely, if need be. I figure I better draw on the vast experience of the forum.

BTW -- How I got the autograph: My father and I were at field level. Jackie was introduced by the stadium announcer before the game to rousing applause. He was several sections over from me. Once the game started I went up my aisle and over to his but the usher would not let me down to get to his seat. I went back to my seat, thought a moment, and then cut across the several sections of seats in a straight line. Most people were nice and not terribly not annoyed as I stepped on their feet and explained my mission. Then, there I was, standing right next to his aisle seat with pen and program. "Excuse me Mr. Robinson, can I have you autograph?" He looked up at me, signed it, and said not a word. Up I went back to the top of the aisle then back to my seat.

Apologies for an overly long post!

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

That's a great story Paul.

My grandfather was one of the first State Troopers in Rhode Island and I made a great little professionally framed picture box of him as a memorial. This included his cap badge, uniform number, and a 1928 photograph of him on the back of a motorcycle taken about five miles down the road to where I currently live.

Seeing that that was in your scrapbook as a kid, would you think of keeping what you're showing all intact along side the program all in a similar frame? That paper backing and staples are, to me, just as much a part of the history of your story (as well as your personal history) as the items if broken apart individually. I'm not sure how it would be authenticated (before or after the framing)

Just a thought

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Posted By: David Atkatz

You obtained the autograph yourself, directly from Robinson's hand.
Why on Earth would you want or need some third party to confirm its authenticity?
Please, people, stop enabling the present-day farce in which an autograph is not deemed real, no matter what the circumstances, unless vetted by a very small group of self-proclaimed experts.

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Posted By: Paul S

Thanks Greg, a picture box with the scrapbook page (or at least part of it because it's oversized and has some non-related stuff on it) is a good idea. The autograph is at the top of the page and the ticket at the bottom. In between, and you can see the very top of it underneath the signature, is a photograph I took out of a book of Jackie in a Montreal uniform about the enter the Dodger clubhouse. Very nice what you did with your grandfather's stuff...the things we hold dear.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Anyone here ever get an autograph that you got in person back from one of the major authenticating services as "forgery"?

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Posted By: Paul S

Well David, I really don't need an authentication -- I've just never done it before and thought maybe it might be a nice touch...place it on the back of the frame perhaps. This is nothing I'm planning on selling, but hopefully will end up in my son's hands, and hopefully he might pass it on as well. Who knows how information gets hazy down the line? It's not meant to diminish the sentimental value, although I appreciate yours.
BTW - I own thousands of cards, from pre-war through postwar. I got the majority of them in the same era I got this autograph -- not one is graded, not a one. These would include Kaline, Banks and Aaron, whose cards I mailed to them with a fan letter and asking for an autograph, and who were generous enough to comply. (Guess I'm feeling defensive today -- lol.)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If the Robinson cut auto is small enough, you can get it authenticated/entombed by PSA/DNA or SGC at their cheap rate. You can justify the authentication to the nay sayers by saying the holder will help preserve the autograph. That the autograph comes with the same occasion ticket and program will raise substantially the value, in part because it places the sig to a specific date and special occasion (can't do that with 99 percent of autographs) and because the ticket and program themselves have value. The ticket and program also are supporting evidence for the lay person that you were in a position to get Jackie's autograph, similar to a Led Zeppelin back stage pass giving credence to someone's claim he met Robert Plant and got his autograph. If you were to sell, I would include your testimonial. Many people would also get a nice photo for the display.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

David...

As you stated earlier, in a different thread, you make your living solely by the sale of baseball memorabilia.
Do you really believe that, say, Steve Grad has more expertise in determining a vintage autograph's authenticity than do you?

(signed)
A naysayer.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

David A., you are one hundred percent correct, in particular with an autograph obtained in person. However, having the autograph authenticated by PSA/DNA or JSA would attract many more bidders at auction.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"David A., you are one hundred percent correct. However, having the autograph authenticated by PSA/DNA or JSA would attract many more bidders at auction."

Alas, 'tis true.
A sad commentary on the state of "the hobby" today.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A lot of eBay sellers make up stories to accompany their dubious autographs (and fake baseball cards), so many bidders like an independent opinion to help authenticate or at least give credence to the story. Unless the seller is someone they know and trust, many bidders are loathe to depend on a seller's story alone.

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Posted By: DJ

The whole idea of getting things authenticated for your personal collection is simply ludicrous and a waste of money. You know it's real, why should you pay $75-100 to have Steve Grad or Jimmy Spence tell you what you know. What if they failed it...and YES, they have failed "good" signatures in the past. What I would do is get a nice photo, get it framed and enjoy the piece!

There's a gigantic scam going on involving music autographs where someone shows the backstage pass and offers a forged signature, so while it's nice to link the two, scam artists are one step ahead of the collectors as usual on that front.

DJ

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I'm a firm believer in Faber College's motto.

"Knowledge is good."

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My number one criterion for buying autographs is know the seller. A good seller is worth more than a good LOA, only in part because you know the good seller is honest and will give you your money back if the item is fake. It doesn't matter how many LOAs a known dishonest seller has, don't buy autographs from them. My dad is no signature expert and no one in her right mind would ask him to authenticate a Babe Ruth autograph, but if he said he got the book on his shelf autographed by Niels Bohr when the famous scientist gave a guest lecture on campus, I would believe the signature authentic as my dad is honest.

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Posted By: DJ

David is correct, the seller is the most important thing. Well, unless David does another edit job to his e-mail, that's what he is saying.

In saying that...Coach's Corner (www.myccsa.com) just put up their latest auctions...another Lou Gehrig bat...another Mel Ott signed jersey...another Josh Gibson single signed ball...and every possible single signed Hall Of Fame ball you can think of.

How in the hell is this still possible, almost eighteen years later?

DJ

edit to add: I will go one more in regards to this top..."fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life!"

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A difference between a good and a bad autograph dealer is the good dealer won't sell the "Ronald Reagan autographed letter" w/ PSA/DNA LOA if he sees that the autograph is autopen, while the bad dealer with the same knowledge will sell the letter because it has a PSA/DNA LOA. Even with identical PSA/DNA LOAs, the good seller is still superior to the bad seller.

CC is so notorious that even if a Ted Williams signed jersey comes with LOAs from UDA and Ted himself himself you wonder what's up.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"A difference between a good and a bad autograph dealer is the good dealer won't sell the "Ronald Reagan autographed letter" w/ PSA/DNA LOA if he sees that the autograph is autopen, while the bad dealer with the same knowledge will sell the letter because it has a PSA/DNA LOA."

Again, David, absolutely true.

So, how many autopen--or worse yet, rubber-stamped--"signatures" authenticated by the "top" companies must we see before people realize what those CoAs are actually worth?

In 1961, when I was ten years old, I received from the Yankees--in answer to my request--the "autographs" of Mantle and Maris. Only problem was, they were both rubber-stamped. I could see that even then. If a ten-year-old in the Bronx could recognize facsimile signatures, why can't the experts at PSA? (I have pointed out to both PSA and another top authenticator that the c.1940 Lou Gehrig signatures they had passed were, in fact, stamped. In both cases they admitted their errors. We all make mistakes, but certainly experts should recognize stamped signatures.)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My theory is if the seller is expert, the LOA is from a reputable company and the purchaser is knowledgeable and all three think the autograph genuine, it probably is. With this three review process, most to all errors will be weeded out and each opinion is being double checked by two others. This includes the identification of secretarial and autopen signatures. Notice that this system is predicated on the purchaser being knowledgeable and buying from good dealers.

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Posted By: Paul S

Gee, I walk away from my computer for a couple of hours and look what happens! DavidCB is providing me good information with solid whys and wherefors -- info I would not have known since this area is not something I really deal with, and it is a learning experience for me regardless of my intentions for the piece(s). David is simply offering his expertise, which is something I asked for in my initial post. Thanks Cycle!

Probably any regular user of this forum knows quite well what his or her (your specimen here) sells for, authenticated and unauthenticated, however obtained, and the best light to present it in. I would be disungenous, uh..disengenius...er, well, not completely upfront(!) if I said I wasn't curious what the maximized value of this would be. So although it is not for sale, anyone may feel free to chime in with their 2 cents, so to speak.

So yay- and- naysayers feel free to duke out the rest on here without wandering too far OT. Although some of the philosophical discussions were addressed by one of my earlier posts, here's another way to look at it: The piece means a lot to me, but not necessarily to my son, who is ambivalent about baseball and heavily into soccer -- let him cut across a soccer stadium and get Pele's! What if something happens to me and Jackie is now in his possession. Technically the pieces mean nothing to him, and he's got plenty else to remember me by. I've done the work for him if he feels he wants to sell it. He otherwise wouldn't have a clue where to begin, but I do. (There was a great discussion about this sort of thing not long ago on the pre-war board.) So, the certificates are on the back and he's good to go. Me, I don't need the auths inside the framebox. (Barry Sloate, he's bringing the cards to you!)

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Posted By: DJ

Guys,

When we discuss Presidential signatures, so many different variations of autopen signatures exist, that it complicates the situations. For many years, many believes certain Presidential variastions where the calligraphy personalization was authentic, only to be deemed that certain variations were now found to be faux. The main question when it comes to authenticating outside the field of expertise is...why do it?

Who on the JSA and PSA/DNA line up is capable of determining these things?

Also, when Bill Daniels took Mastro to court, "PSA/DNA authenticated 56,000+ autographs in 48 man hours" according to autographalert.com. How accurate can you really be and doesn't an autopen look okay when rushed so?

DJ

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Posted By: Anonymous

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your great item with us. You could get the autograph slabbed and frame the slab up with a nice photo depicting Jackie.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

You will get almost double your money if JSA or PSA passes the item. I know it sucks but that is the way things are today.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Nonsense! A CoA from PSA or JSA will make an item easier to sell.
It will not double the price realized.

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Posted By: Paul S

Thanks everyone. If not double the price, might a COA bolster a bidder's confidence enough that they might go somewhat higher than without one?

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Posted By: DJ

Won't an LOA from Spence make it easier to sell...because more uneducated people will bid in the belief that it is authentic....therefore putting a premium on the piece...meaning the item will sell for substantially more? Isn't Shelly basically correct? I think it's all about the comfort level of the consumer. I sold an item once for $12...the exact same item with LOA from PSA/DNA sold for $91.

I have seen authentic Jackie Robinson's on eBay attract only the educated buyers and these autographs sold for $300-350. I sold an authentic cut similar to the one this gentleman has for $310 three years ago. Now if you pay the $75-100 to have it authenticated, I have seen them sell on average for $500-600.

Yes, a good seller will obtain a large collection of signed items (those blanket letters) and be able to pick through the good and the bad and fill up small rubbish basket...instead of passing it on as "authentic" (because it came with LOA from PSA/DNA) to their clients.

DJ

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If you can get your Robinson sig entombed in a PSA/DNA or SGC/JSA card holder, you will more than make your money back on the $25 or whatever is current grading fee. You will get more bidders and many bidders will bid more.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

FYI - PSA charges $100 for Jackie Robinson.
JSA charges $100 for Robinson.
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