F**k the autograph BUY the Cert.

[Piedmont Sport]

Anyone agree thats whats going on right now ?

[slidekellyslide]

Probably true for the majority considering the amount of fake material out there...not everyone has the same expertise as the auto collectors on this board...I'd also bet that most autograph purchasers are not autograph collectors, but they want to have a signed ball, photo, et cetera of their favorite player and the smartest way to do that is to go with one of the respected authenticators.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[Big Dave]

I totally agree and have seen this trend for a long time, because of eBay. It has gotten to the point where many times the cost of authentication is so much that the authentication company makes more on an item then I do. Crazy!

[Mr. Zipper]

I see the "buy the label, not the item" mentality in cards and comics all the time. If it's slabbed grade X, that's what some people buy, even if the item presents poorly for the assigned grade.

That said, I don't know anyone who would knowingly buy a fake autograph and be happy with it just because the cert said it was okay.

I try to study and learn autographs to the best of my ability. However, in some cases, I like to have an informed second opinion. Ideally a reputable TPA would have the skills and knowledge to identify more deceptive forgeries that could fool even a relatively informed collector. Whether this is the reality or not is up for debate.

I have been really studying Mantle and learning from experienced collectors since I discovered I had some fakes. In a few short months my skills have grown quite a bit. I will state that I have seen plenty of TPA approved Mantles I would steer clear of. They **might** be okay, but they are not strong enough to erase all doubt. I guess I am saying that a TPA COA adds some value to me, but is not the ultimate deciding factor.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I totally agree and have seen this trend for a long time, because of eBay. It has gotten to the point where many times the cost of authentication is so much that the authentication company makes more on an item then I do. Crazy!

Yup... I really don't understand how you see PSA or JSA holograms on $20 items. Even if the cert was obtained at a show and only cost $8 at the point of signing, the photo itself usually cost $5. That leaves $7 for the cost of the signature and what little profit is left. Add in eBay and PayPal fees and it is a loss.

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Yup... I really don't understand how you see PSA or JSA holograms on $20 items. Even if the cert was obtained at a show and only cost $8 at the point of signing, the photo itself usually cost $5. That leaves $7 for the cost of the signature and what little profit is left. Add in eBay and PayPal fees and it is a loss.

Yeah i see the same thing happen with modern cards (80's-present) too. I never understood why people pay to have a 5 dollar, or sometimes less, card slabbed. The grading fees cost more than the card. Sometimes you even see common cards or virtual no-names graded...Would I rather buy 10 raw NM 1992 topps Griffeys @ $1 each or have one NM graded at the same cost? I really don't get it

[murphusa]

unless you are going to sell the item why would you need a certificate. If you are not an expert or at least an educated collector, why are you buying anything in the first place?

so you have a Babe Ruth Baseball and you want to sell it, where would you go. If you tried to sell it here would you need a certificate?

if you sold it to some schmuck on the street?


where is your market.

Is the cost of the certificate part of your marketing plan?

Certificates, the biggest marketing ploy ever in the history of collecting.

For the past 25 years it has been a joy to watch a person buy a major league baseball at a stand at a show, buy a ticket for an autograph, get the ball signed then as they are walking out of the autograph area there is a friend of the promoter willing for a fee to give you a certificate for another $7 or $8.

So now you have a ball with a certificate that no one will care about so now you have to get another one from one of the"Boys" so you can sell the ball.

So in 1993 you buy a ball $6.00, get Bob Feller to signed it $12.00. Get Eddie's friend to give you a certificate, $7.00 you put the ball away.

So 2011 you see Bob has died, where is that ball, found it, certificate sucks so I need a new one. Go to show $8.00 to get in go get a new certificate a quick one not a full one $35.00


woohoo now I can sell my ball that I have had for 18 years.

I'll give you $35.00 for it


yes we need new blood in this hobby, mainly to suck them dry

[murphusa]

I am going to start a company and sell "letters of attestation"

just because it sound cool

[Sapper]

First and foremost research is key to being informed in order to make decssions in all we do. With that said before I purchase any graph its got to look good to me, period. Then if it has one of the "Boys" certs all the better. Conversely if it doesn't look good to me I don't care who says its legitimate I'm not touching it.

No doubt paying for Authentication at $20 a hit for basic certs sucks. But the reality of it is if it has that ol' respected 3rd party cert your stuff will sale for more any day of the week.

[Heritage Sports]

There are a lot of valid points being made about authentication in this thread, but I think all of us should be able to agree on a single point (or, at least, those of us who have been around long enough to see the trend). Professional authentication has unquestionably brought a great degree of justice to the Wild West. We may gripe about costs for the service, but the emergence of quality professional authentication has been a boon to the hobby.

[HRBAKER]

Maybe, it's certainly been a boon to the authenticators.
Somebody still needs to explain to me why it costs more to authenticate some players than others (particularly on site where they are not holding the item for a long period of time and "assuming" the risk of loss"). The authenticators don't have more to lose as they aren't guaranteeing anything other than they have an opinion. Might as well say we have decided to participate in the secondary value of the items and as long as you are willing to pay the freight we will continue to.


edited for poor spellin'

[prewarsports]

I agree with most of what has been said, including the last post.

I think Professional Opinions by respected dealers and/or authenticators are a must for those people who are not experts thenselves.

My biggest complaint is that people tend to think the "opinion" of the top authenticators somehow trumps the "opinion" of others who dont take money for the service or who authenticate their own items and back it with a 100% money back Guarantee.

For example, Jodi Birkholm is no longer a paid authenticator (I dont think anyways) but I would trust his opinion along with a few collector friends I have on a rare/obscure signature than ANY paid authenticator in the hobby 100% of the time! Most people though would just assume the paid third party is right if there was a conflicing opinion.

I think that JSA/PSA do a pretty good job considering the volume of bad material out there and I know that Jimmy tries hard to keep up with trends and keeps large files of examples, no knocking them as I think they do supply a needed service. I just wish people would realize that they are not the ONLY option and trusted dealers opinions are just as good and sometimes better and they generally will stand behind the item where an authenticator does not.

Rhys Yeakley

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

Professional authentication has unquestionably brought a great degree of justice to the Wild West. We may gripe about costs for the service, but the emergence of quality professional authentication has been a boon to the hobby.

Can you back up these opinions--for that is all they are--with any quantifiable evidence?

[Scott Garner]

[QUOTE=HRBAKER;892037]Maybe, it's certainly been a boon to the authenticators.
Somebody still needs to explain to me why it costs more to authenticate some players than others (particularly on site where they are not holding the item for a long period of time and "assuming" the risk of loss"). The authenticators don't have more to lose as they aren't guaranteeing anything other than they have an opinion. Might as well say we have decided to participate in the secondary value of the items and as long as you are willing to pay the freight we will continue to.


Excellent points Jeff. Well said!

[Piedmont Sport]

So a top notch forger can fool most because everyone is using examples of auto's from different time spans in that players life - matching them up - and then giving an ok on the piece - iv'e seen it done at many conventions - how else can the quick opinion work - it's all a money maker - there is only one guy on each letter at the major 2 houses that sign for full LOA's - may tell you something

[thecatspajamas]

I think one area where widely-recognized authenticators have helped is in the area of online sales. Not necessarily in terms of having more real material out there and less fake, but simply in terms of sellers being able to sell signed items for decent prices. Most collectors simply don't have the opportunity to get to know any authenticators outside of "the boys," and frankly, aren't interested in doing background checks on every individual authenticator that the various dealers know and refer to. That's not to say that those authenticators' opinions aren't as valid or shouldn't be trusted just as much if not moreso, but most collectors don't want to have to put in the time researching authenticators any more than they do learning to verify the autographs themselves. You can gripe about it all day long, but most buyers are lazy, plain and simple. They want sellers to do all the work, summarize what it is they're selling in 55 characters or less, and be assured that what they are getting is authentic. If it's "branded" with a major authenticator's logo so that they don't even have to read the line where you tell them who has authenticated it, so much the better. It's much the same mentality as buying brand-name clothing. They go to the store knowing they want to buy pants, but rather than testing out all the pants to see which is most comfortable or made of a better quality material or has the best stitching, they go straight to the name-brand store and get whatever looks best on the store model. A buyer knows he wants a Mickey Mantle autograph, goes to eBay and picks from the PSA or JSA-authenticated ones listed. He might compare prices among those and select the cheapest one, but there is clearly a brand-name shopping mentality there, not an evaluation of the quality of the items themselves. If they happen to know that a Kevin Keating brand authenticated autograph is just as good as a PSA or JSA, they might consider themselves a hip insider and include those in their search, but 99% of buyers are not going to go to the trouble of figuring out who's who, who has worked for who, and who can be trusted. They're just going to go to their favorite brand of "the boys" and start their shopping there.

That being said, perhaps a list of trusted alternate (meaning not PSA or JSA employed) authenticators could be compiled, debated, culled and boiled down for those of us who do not have the opportunity to know these other individuals personally? Because frankly, without getting the Good Guys' names out there, it does little to no good to have them authenticate an item that will be sold to the general public [edited to add: in order to add value other than personal satisfaction that the autograph is authentic (in other words, in order to use the authentication as a selling point, the authenticator must be known to the buyer)]. MAYBE if there was a semi-official list of trusted individuals whose merits and mistakes as authenticators had been debated that could be referred back to, MAYBE then you could get at least some buyers to look at it. MAYBE. It would still be a long, uphill battle for sellers, but at least maybe it wouldn't be a 90-degree climb.

Probably such a list should be started as a separate thread. I haven't searched the archives for such a thing, but even if there is an old thread similar to this, it could probably stand to be revived and updated every so often.

Any other thoughts on how to get some other good names out there? As a buyer, I would love a short list of who can be trusted, but even moreso as a seller, I would like to still be able to make sales. It would be very helpful to have a thread that I could point potential buyers to (the small percentage that read past the listing title anyway) in which the merits of a particular lone wolf authenticator have been publicly discussed. (Preferably a thread without profanity in the title...)

[Piedmont Sport]

Great repsonse whoever you are -BUT- if you use ebay they will pull it down if you don.t use PSA - JSA - GAI - and they want you to use the Q.P.

[thecatspajamas]

Admittedly, getting eBay to accept anyone else is even harder than getting buyers to do so. I think you'll find that they focus on higher profile/more expensive autographs though, in addition to those policed by agents of the signers themselves (off the top of my head I can't think of any sports figures this would apply to, but try selling a piece of KISS memorabilia that Gene Simmons didn't authorize (and get paid for) and you'll see what I mean). Over the years I've had them pull Clemente, Muhammad Ali, and Michael Jordan signed items that were legit but didn't have one of their approved authenticators. But those were only a small percentage of the overall number of signed items I have sold. Most are below eBay's threshold of caring. The more buyers who see a "good guy's" name out there though, even on lesser items, the more overall confidence they will build in shopping outside "the boys" category.

AND if eBay is ever going to change their stance on which authenticators are okay to use, it won't be because one or two guys vouched for someone. I have to believe that they chose the companies that they did because those were the ones that were widely accepted (at the time, whatever you may think of GAI now) among collectors. Personal gripes aside, those were the companies that were well-known. Knowing how eBay works, whatever person or persons made that initial selection probably didn't do any more research on authenticators than buyers do, and laziness is surely a factor in why they haven't updated their "approved" list as well. I still think that, if they ever did open their eyes to re-assess their approved list vs. what is currently accepted, having a list of other good authenticators along with well-hashed-out reasoning as to why they are good and why those eliminated from the list are not would go a long way to building that concensus opinion among the collecting community.

And any long-term pipe dreams of eBay changing for the better aside, I'd just like to see a boiled down list of who is good and trustworthy. Every second or third board post seems to deal with why such-and-such an autograph is clearly no good or how we can't believe X company would let that one pass and surely Y individual would have failed it, etc. I wouldn't be so much interested in a black list as a list of the "good guys" who have a good track record.

Lance Fittro

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Piedmont Sport

Great repsonse whoever you are -BUT- if you use ebay they will pull it down if you don.t use PSA - JSA - GAI - and they want you to use the Q.P.

Frank, that is totally untrue.
The only time my certs were pulled was when they were with your items.
It is still a mystery to me why that happened.
Did your attorney ever find out? Did she question ebay about that? I was told that was going to happen.
Frank, did you have other items pulled when they pulled the items with my certs and Kevin Keating's certs and Yawkley's certs? Perhaps items that did not have any certs?
You cannot use an authenticator on the ebay banned list but you don't have to use the recommended authenticators.
If you have a cert on ebay you have to say where it came from.
It cannot come from a banned authenticator.
It can come from anyone else.

[Piedmont Sport]

Rich - hate to differ but they will pull the stuff down if the Q.P. does not come back from psa as good - you can read the guideline - they have the right to remove it - SO - if the Q.P. is hit - it alerts ebay if it fails. Thats what we have found out. They also said since i have all positive feedback it would be ok to list uncerted - or other certed items by others, other then the big 3 -- but if it fails or reported to ebay they can take it down and give me a strike and remove my power seller status - if it contiues they will issue a suspension.

[Piedmont Sport]

Sorry Rich - didn't answer one of your questions - Yes others were pulled 6 total - and yes 4 of the 6 were from another service. We have written ebay and my councel awaits response.

[RichardSimon]

Frank - your original post said that only the big three can be used by ebay sellers.
My point was that was not at all true. Though an item can be pulled if it is deemed bad by PSA or other ebay members who report the item. I believe ebay than investigates and determines whether an item should be pulled.

[Big Dave]

There's a guy over at http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum2/ named Sammy that is pretty good at spotting the good from the bad, and he does it for FREE.

[tinkereversandme]

I think this has always gone on. People trust the authenticator way too much. I read GU Universe on occasion and it would greatly add credibility if we knew exactly who this "Sammy" actually is. He did (if I remember) say good things about Garo a few years ago.

It's no different then a guy buying a "6" in an "8" holder and assuming it's an "8". I have seen some ugly "8's". It's all about floating opinions.

Regards,

Larry