1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth sells for more than the T206 Wagner

[Zone91]

I believe this is the way it should be....to me the Ruth is WAY more important!!!

Results:

Ruth 380 000$ + juice = 450 300$

Wagner 340 000$ + juice = 402 900$

I believe this is a new record for a PSA 1.

Post # 2

[barrysloate]

Wagners come around several times a year, every year. Baltimore News Ruths don't.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I think it's a good time to sell. Dave

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I think it's a good time to sell. Dave

Yeah, I'm probably gonna pull the three I have hidden away and consign them

[g_vezina_c55]

Imagine if a psa8 BN Ruth surface ...imagine the final bid ... Probably more than the 2 800 000$ of the psa8 wagner

I think We can now said the BN Ruth is the most valuable baseball card ?

[tennisguy]

Well, what did you think of the auction overall Adrian? Any luck yourself? Hope you enjoyed it!

All the Best,

Ryan H.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Imagine if a psa8 BN Ruth surface ...imagine the final bid ... Probably more than the 2 800 000$ of the psa8 wagner

I think We can now said the BN Ruth is the most valuable baseball card ?

Nelson,

The final price on a "8" BN Ruth would be insane!!

I guess there is a new king in town - move over Honus!

Tony

[Zone91]

tennisguy

It was GREAT!!! I did not win but that is fine I will simply buy a few PSA 8 Mantle cards for my master set instead. When is the next REA suppose to happen and how many REA auctions are there per year?

Wish I could have staid up longer....my medications just knocked me out at around 10h45pm last night....just passed out.

Post # 3

[Zone91]

A PSA 8 BN Ruth should be a 5$ million dollar card easy I am thinking over 7$ million dollars maybe with all the hype the very 1st 10$ million dollar card. But I believe the highest graded is a 4???

Post # 4

[Cardboard Junkie]

Yes, but they are not all graded.

[e107collector]

In December 2012, I was at the Valley Forge Show, and the news that REA would be selling this card was being discussed.

I said I wouldn't be surprised if the card sold for close to $400K, and most said $300K was almost certain. One guy who was standing near the table said - "No way that card sells for over $250K, it's graded a 1 for crying out loud!"

After reading the REA description for that card, who knows when another BN Ruth will come to auction? Unless another example is discovered, the other cards seem to be entrenched in huge collections that probably won't see the light of day for quite some time. We may not see another Ruth rookie come to auction for many years.

Tony

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Imagine if a psa8 BN Ruth surface ...imagine the final bid ... Probably more than the 2 800 000$ of the psa8 wagner

I think We can now said the BN Ruth is the most valuable baseball card ?

no its not because a BN ruth grade 8 has NOT surfaced. it cant be a theoretical most valuable card. the card that has sold for the most in real life is the most valuable baseball card.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Zone91

A PSA 8 BN Ruth should be a 5$ million dollar card easy I am thinking over 7$ million dollars maybe with all the hype the very 1st 10$ million dollar card. But I believe the highest graded is a 4???

Post # 4

the problem is that if all other are 4's, then an 8 doesnt get the comparison it deserves, as it would be worth a lot more than a 7, which is worth a lot more than a 6. since there arent any 5, 6, 7's? then how much to stick on an 8 all by itself?

like the black swamp find. bunch of pristine cards by themselves with most other examples already in the hobby in much less shape. they didnt sell for as much as some people hoped. i am not saying a bn ruth 8 wouldnt sell for 5 or 7 million, but who knows. since one will probably never be found, its all conjecture,

what if a grade 10 wagner were to be found, then what? the answer is so what? it hasnt and almost certainly will never be anyway so who cares? it would be the worlds first 20 million dollar card. but reality gets in the way.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Zone91

I believe this is the way it should be....to me the Ruth is WAY more important!!!

Results:

Ruth 380 000$ + juice = 450 300$

Wagner 340 000$ + juice = 402 900$

I believe this is a new record for a PSA 1.

Post # 2

there are more wagners than BN ruths, if there were only 7 or 10 wagners, then i believe wagners would dwarf the ruth then. its apples and oranges if the populations is 10 to 80.

[g_vezina_c55]

Its the first time in the history of the hobby of a graded 1 baseball card sell for more than a graded1 wagner ?

[Runscott]

All we know is that at least two wealthy collectors wanted a rare card very badly. All sorts of personal factors could also have been part of the equation - tons of disposable income, alcohol, late- night auction high that's probably similar to gambling, etc.

It's a minor league card, the Wagner is in a different league...so to speak. Just a fluke I bet we don't see again.

[joeadcock]

What is this darn country coming to, something low grade for more than a Wagner? Like everything else, things are a changin.

[deadballfreaK]

I'm way in the minority, but an obscure minor league Babe Ruth doesn't compare to a Wagner for me. I guess it does for others. To each his own.

[travrosty]

comparing the babe ruth if it were an 8 and trying to extrapolate prices is like the comparisons of a pound per pound champion in boxing. saying that if sugar ray robinson were a bigger man, heavier man, etc. he could have beaten joe louis or muhammad ali so pound for pound he was better. It's fantasy, and an excercise in futility. until there is a grade 8 BN Ruth, we will never know if it would have sold more than the Wagner. All grade 1 Wagners or grade 2 Wagners are not made the same either. Same with BN Ruths, and one a collector with that type of money has one, doesnt necessarily mean he will buy another, or that another will take his place. You need two or more to drive it up to stratospheric prices. If bidders take a bit of a break you might see a Wagner go for a little less or a BN Ruth go for a little more, or vice versa, who knows.

[glynparson]

Higher grade unaltered Wagner outsells higher grade bn Ruth. On a 1 it all depends on timing etc. the demand outside the hobby is more for Wagner t206 then the bn Ruth.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

I'm way in the minority, but an obscure minor league Babe Ruth doesn't compare to a Wagner for me. I guess it does for others. To each his own.

Agree with this. If I was ever in the position to afford either card, I would rather have a Wagner T-206 card than a Ruth Baltimore News card. The Ruth card is far more rare, but there is a panache to the Wagner card that extends far beyond the hobby: It is from perhaps the most iconic set of all time, and there will probably never be a definitive answer as to why it is so scarce in comparison to most of the rest of the T-206 set.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by e107collector

In December 2012, I was at the Valley Forge Show, and the news that REA would be selling this card was being discussed.

I said I wouldn't be surprised if the card sold for close to $400K, and most said $300K was almost certain. One guy who was standing near the table said - "No way that card sells for over $250K, it's graded a 1 for crying out loud!"

After reading the REA description for that card, who knows when another BN Ruth will come to auction? Unless another example is discovered, the other cards seem to be entrenched in huge collections that probably won't see the light of day for quite some time. We may not see another Ruth rookie come to auction for many years.

Tony

Tony, I was quietly standing behind you during that exchange, and I distinctly heard you predict $450K with the juice. I think you also correctly predicted the time that the final bid was placed within 10 seconds.

Very well done.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Runscott

All we know is that at least two wealthy collectors wanted a rare card very badly. All sorts of personal factors could also have been part of the equation - tons of disposable income, alcohol, late- night auction high that's probably similar to gambling, etc.

It's a minor league card, the Wagner is in a different league...so to speak. Just a fluke I bet we don't see again.

I agree. I also wonder if these two high bidders already own Wagners, so they have no reason to bid on this one, but will go as high as they possibly can for a Ruth that may not come around again for years.

[Runscott]

With rare cards like this, it's tough to predict things. Tony got it right, but some of the rest of us were baffled. People tend to forget that it only takes two bidders to give us this result - if one of them had dropped out for any number of reasons, it might be that no one would have taken his place and driven the price up.

There were crazy-high prices on a number of items last night (and in past auctions) - you could easily argue that this was a fluke, and there would be no evidence to go against you.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Tony, I was quietly standing behind you during that exchange, and I distinctly heard you predict $450K with the juice. I think you also correctly predicted the time that the final bid was placed within 10 seconds.

Very well done.

Scott,

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you, if you are at future shows, drop me a line. I love meeting up & speaking with fellow NET 54 members.


Tony

[Zone91]

I do not understand the logic of it only takes 2 bidders to push up the price is that not the case with EVERYTHING else in this world as well? I mean maybe there was 3 guys or 4 how do we know it was only 2 bidders....makes no sens to me. The end result is what matters it beat the T206 Wagner and that is that...final results are very much real in life!!! Like it or not the reality is that the Ruth is now the most expensive card EVER sold in a PSA 1 no matter how the bidding went!!!

I know for some it is a SHOCK that the T206 Wagner is now # 2 but it is what it is!!! Rarely in reality does something always stay # 1 for ever.

And one day most likely the most expensive card in the world will be the 52 Topps Mantle in PSA 10 why you ask simple it DOES exist in that grade not like the 2 other cards mentioned here. I am pretty in say 15 years it will be the new # 1 unless a new high grade of either the Ruth or Wagner is discovered that has not been altered in any way.

[ullmandds]

There is no way in Hell...Heaven or any other place that the 52 topps mantle will ever be the most expensive/valuable card in the hobby...never gonna happen!

[MattyC]

I would say, "Ladies, you're both beautiful. I'd be happy to have either one of you."

Then I would take them both home.

[Zone91]

ullmandds

Hard to say the current estimates are that a PSA 10 52 Topps Mantle is now worth over 1$ million dollars what about in 20 years...if there is a card that can be worth more my guess would be this one again ONLY in PSA 10.

Post # 3

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Scott,

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you, if you are at future shows, drop me a line. I love meeting up & speaking with fellow NET 54 members.


Tony

You're even drier than me, which is tough

I will be at the National from Wednesday until Saturday.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Zone91

I do not understand the logic of it only takes 2 bidders to push up the price is that not the case with EVERYTHING else in this world as well? I mean maybe there was 3 guys or 4 how do we know it was only 2 bidders....makes no sens to me. The end result is what matters it beat the T206 Wagner and that is that...final results are very much real in life!!! Like it or not the reality is that the Ruth is now the most expensive card EVER sold in a PSA 1 no matter how the bidding went!!!

I know for some it is a SHOCK that the T206 Wagner is now # 2 but it is what it is!!! Rarely in reality does something always stay # 1 for ever.

And one day most likely the most expensive card in the world will be the 52 Topps Mantle in PSA 10 why you ask simple it DOES exist in that grade not like the 2 other cards mentioned here. I am pretty in say 15 years it will be the new # 1 unless a new high grade of either the Ruth or Wagner is discovered that has not been altered in any way.

There are more examples of "everything else in the world", so you've got more data to go on.

[ullmandds]

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

[Zone91]

ullmandds

Could be the case but no one here has ever seen Ruth play or Wagner for that matter or Ty Cobb and their cards are going up and up and up...so I believe Mantle will do just fine....Mantle will always be remembered in baseball as is Ruth. The 2 biggest names in baseball are Ruth and Mantle and they are legends people will remember and if not they will read books and watch online videos and get into buying them. There are SO many ways now to learn about these guys (Internet for one) that people will continue to enjoy collecting them down the road.

The 52 Topps Mantle is to Iconic and that will not change for some card printed in say 1990 or 2012. It is the face of modern day baseball...no way some newer printed card will take its place...way to many exist in high grade....who truly cares about 1/1 modern day cards unless it is a Ruth or a Mantle or some other legend of the game that played long ago.

Post # 4

[ullmandds]

sorry Adrian...I still disagree!!!!!! Ruth has 714...a lifetime BA of .342...incredible pitching stats...Cobb had 4191...lifetime BA unfathomable .367...Mantle was revered by many who watched him play for his power...and clutch...but his #'s...in my opinion will not stand the test of time...just my opinion.

I certainly respect and appreciate your enthusiasm...and your opinion...noone knows...we're just speculating.

[Zone91]

The 52 Topps Mantle is like Detective comics # 27 the 1st appearance of Batman and the Babe Ruth is like Action comics # 1 the 1st appearance of Superman people will never forget those like they will never forget these 2 baseball players.

There is NO way Barry Bonds with 762 homers will EVER be collected like Ruth or Mantle same goes for Hank Aaron....much less people talk about Aaron than Mantle even if Aaron was a much better player...that is why true legends will always be popular and collected.

Post # 5

[MattyC]

I could see the Just So Cy Young hammering for an all time card record.

While it's not a card everyone would want, that type of broad demand isn't necessarily required to reach a record high price. A card like that would appeal to the type of collector who could make thermospheric bids. If I have my facts straight, it is the only one known and the earliest card of a titanic name in the sport-- not even a relatively unknown or obscure-to-today's-masses HOFer. I could see intense competition erupt over that card at auction.

[Zone91]

Alex Rodriguez has better #'s than Mantle and will most likely be the new homerun king in a couple of years and have over 3000 hits...but truly who really cares about his cards....you will never see people collect these cards like they collect iconic and legendary players just will not happen.

Pete Rose is still the # 1 hit leader and his rookie goes for only a couple hundred dollars in PSA 5....why simple he is not Mantle or Ruth or some other player like Cobb or Wagner or Shoeless Joe Jackson. No one will become the new poster face of modern day baseball except for Mantle....not Hank Aaron not Willie Mays no one.

Post # 6

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Zone91

I know for some it is a SHOCK that the T206 Wagner is now # 2 but it is what it is!!! Rarely in reality does something always stay # 1 for ever.

The reason it would be a shock is because what you are claiming is just not true. The Wagner T-206 sold through Goldin last month sold for $2.1 million. Until someone is willing to put up more money for any other card, the Wagner T-206 is still the king of the hobby, IMO.

[Zone91]

Bored5000

What I said is he his the new king for a card graded a PSA 1 that is what I said....I did not say for higher grades....yet.

Post # 7

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

I completely agree Peter,

I think you are already seeing this effect with Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. They are still very popular, but not the way that they were 20 years ago. Mantle was an incredibly gifted player who had the misfortune to suffer major injuries early in his career, so his numbers don't stack up with the all time greats and when the folks that saw him play are no longer around to tell the stories, his popularity will decline, even if only slightly. There's also a much greater likelihood of more Mantle rookies showing up as quite a few of the kids that collected cards at the time are still alive and I'd imagine that more cards will be showing up in estates over the next 10-20 years. The likelihood of additional pre-WWI cards being discovered is much less as you are looking at items being passed through multiple generations.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Pete Rose is still the # 1 hit leader and his rookie goes for only a couple hundred dollars in PSA 5....

Citing this example is somewhat specious. It is very tough to compare different cards' values in the same grade across different eras. It is also very hard to compare players' statures based on card values. A low pop common from the 60s or 70s might command $3000+ in PSA 9; that doesn't mean that common player is better than Mike Schmidt.

Due to time and collectors preservation habits, many more 1963 Rose rookie cards are laying around than there are 1952 Mantles...

There are currently 1128 Mantles graded by PSA, with 227 grading at and north of PSA 5.

In contrast, there are 2859 Rose RCs graded by PSA, with nearly 2000 examples at or north of PSA 5.

So condition now enters the conversation as a determinant of value and it becomes apples to oranges. In PSA 8 or 9, the Rose RC is not a cheap card, and its price in that range might sound more commensurate with it being the RC of the all time hits leader.

That said, I think Mantle's iconic status within the card collecting hobby will stand the test of time, as will Ruth's. Even though Mantle has many cards in the hobby, eye-appealing examples of his earliest issues will, in my opinion, never plunge in value, nor will his rare issues like say the Dice Game. But again this is all talk and only time will tell.

I think names like Ruth, Cobb, Aaron, Williams, and DiMaggio, will endure well in terms of their card values-- but by card values I specifically mean the values of their most desired, popular cards. I can see a later issue Ted Williams dipping over time but not nearly as much so for a card like the 1954 Wilson Franks. Similarly I can see a 1968 Mantle in PSA 8 dipping long term, but not nearly as much if at all for a nicely centered example of his RC or the 52T.

[Zone91]

wolf441

Mantle is to much of a legend for this to happen....ask almost any kid today who Cobb is or Wagner and they will look at you with a stupid face....Ruth's numbers have been beaten by players like Aaron and Bonds but who pays a fortune for a Aaron or Bonds card very few people do why simple they are NOT true legends that transcend threw history like Ruth and Mantle.

Ask almost any kid from New York who Mantle is they will know right away...Ruth's 714 homeruns has already been beat and will be beat again and again in the future but who cares Ruth is Ruth and that goes for Mantle as well.

Plus the 52 Topps set is Iconic as well as been the 1st Topps set ever so Mantle will do just fine down the road!!! People mostly collect T206, 33 Goudey and 52 Topps that is just the way it is....almost no one cares about sets from the 1980's and later...this will not change people want to collect insert cards and guess what when they find a Ruth or a Mantle they yell with joy.

Name me just one baseball player since Mantle's playing days came to a end who people care more about....the answer is NONE!!! A lot of people have over 500 homeruns but 95%-99% people forget about and could care less about but not Mantle and Ruth.

Derek Jeter will beat Cobb as far as hits go some time in the next couple of years...again who really cares about Jeter compared to Cobb!!!

Post # 8

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Zone91

The 52 Topps Mantle is like Detective comics # 27 the 1st appearance of Batman and the Babe Ruth is like Action comics # 1 the 1st appearance of Superman people will never forget those like they will never forget these 2 baseball players.

There is NO way Barry Bonds with 762 homers will EVER be collected like Ruth or Mantle same goes for Hank Aaron....much less people talk about Aaron than Mantle even if Aaron was a much better player...that is why true legends will always be popular and collected.

Post # 5

While some of that is true, the reason is a bit off in my opinion.

Ruth is by far the best hitter of his era, and barring injury from overwork (which was likely at the time) would probably have been one of the best pitchers. There aren't many players witht that sort of all around combination.

Mantle was certainly among the best of his era, but not a clear #1. Yes, he fought off a bunch of injuries, but so have other players who aren't regarded as highly. I think a lot of the Mantle thing is that he played in New York, through an era when the other two NY teams lost some fan base and moved west. Mays would probably be thought of the same way had the Giants stayed in NY.

Aaron was a generally quiet guy playing for a team in a far less media intensive market. And while he didn't put up insanely flashy numbers in any one season (For the era) He did perform at a very high level for a long time. 17 straight years in the top 10 in the league for HR. Some of what he accomplished won't happen again anytime soon. More players are either driven out because they become too expensive, or simply leave because they have enough money and aren't willing to play through a few years of chronic injury. Or a combination of both.

I'd have to agree about Bonds though. He was a great player, but was far too abrasive compared to players during the same time. I think he might have broken the career HR record without steroids, just a year or two later (Or three depending on how he aged) But a bad attitude in a small media market just doesn't lead anywhere good.

Steve B

[Zone91]

steve B

Same could be said if Adolf Hitler came from Canada....but history is history and he did not so everyone remembers him as the # 1 villain of humankind.

No one can change the past...Aaron lucked out in fame versus Mantle just the way things went down.

Post # 9

[Zone91]

It is like the great artist in painting no modern day painter will be as popular as the greats from the past just will not happen EVEN if most today paint better!!! Who in his right mind would pay 100$ million dollars for a modern day painting (and for me same goes for any old painting but people do pay that kind of money why because they are Legends in their field).

Post # 10

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Zone91

It is like the great artist in painting no modern day painter will be as popular as the greats from the past just will not happen EVEN if most today paint better!!! Who in his right mind would pay 100$ million dollars for a modern day painting (and for me same goes for any old painting but people do why because they are Legends in their field).

Post # 10

Oh, those modern paintings can go for quite a bit of money. I don't know about $100mn, but $50mn, yes.

[Zone91]

cyseymour

My point was that the great artists from the past will always be remembered no matter what and there paintings will always command high prices even if they where painted over 400 years ago.

Babe Ruth has been dead for 3 generations now and people still love the guy and collect him as for Mantle it has been only 1 generation since he has died.

Baseball is just to important in America for people to forget the true legends of the game!! Hockey yes people forget about the truly old players (from the early 1900's) but not baseball.

Plus people in the U.S are probably one of the countries who care more about their history than any other nation on Earth so people will remember....way to many books/movies exist about U.S history for people to just forget.

Post # 11

[brob28]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Adrian...I have to disagree...as more and more people die...who may have seen mantle play...who have this form of disposable income...the demand for his cards will go down. People like you...who at your age idolize mantle...are a small minority.

I have thought this for a long time Peter. I never saw Mantle play, certainly appreciate his talent and contributions to the game but still can't figure out the excessive (IMO) premium on most of his cards. One other factor to this is that there are far more 1952 Topps Mantles to be had than T206 Wagner's or BN Ruths.

[steve B]

Hmm....Lots of stuff to consider.

CySeymour - we've had a slow art conversation in the off topic section. While looking some stuff up I was amazed that something like 9 of the top 10 auction sale prices were for art from the 1900's. And most of that from the last half of the century.

Andrew- My point was that publicity has as much to do with how a player becomes an iconic character. Without publicity of their exploits it either never happens, or doesn't get to the same stature. Mantle is obviosly an iconc figure, but if it had been the Yankees moving to SF, I don't think he would be. (And I'll counter your Canadian Hitler with a western Pol Pot or a less secretive Stalin, or even an Andrew Jackson going agianst a larger population. ) Look at a couple modern players - Ken Griffey Jr. - some hype early, some injury issues, and eventually a great 22 years that put him over 600HR. But nearly the entire last half of his career was pretty quiet on the PR front. Jim Thome - another 22 years, also over 600 HR and not even a hint of steroids. His entire career played in small larket places, and he's not a flashy guy. If you can call 7th all time in hr not flashy.
Reggie Jacksons 5 years in NY were ones of amazing celebrity, but weren't really that impressive.
When you think late 70's power hitters, who do you think of first? Jackson or Rice? Jackson or Hisle? (Hisle had more HR and more RBI in both 77 and 78 before injury finished him.) Jackson or Gorman Thomas? Jackson or really any of the players who had 18 better HR seasons between 77 and 79?
Publicity has a LOT to do with it.

On the card front, I wonder how much the 52 Mantle affected his iconic image? I don't think either would be quite the same without the other.

For that matter, how much does a "great" card affect any player? Baltimore news wasn't a big deal till recently, but would Ruth be as famous without the Goudeys? Would Wagner be as famous without the T206, or if it wasn't an uncommon card? That maybe belongs in another thread, as it's getting a bit off topic.

[4815162342]

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between MattyC and Zone91. Maybe a slightly different avatar for the latter is in order?

mick with tin foil.jpg